More Info on Demon Hunter Skill/Resource Changes

DiabloWikiBashiok replied to a question about the Demon Hunter’s big DiabloWikiresource/skill changes by adding some useful details. As speculated on in our previous post, Hatred does still regenerate, though not as quickly as it once did, and that combines with the various +Hatred skills to allow players to rapidly build up Hatred which they can then expend through other skills. The quote:

Does DiabloWikiHatred still regenerate passively?
Yes, but the rate at which it regenerates is about half of what it was previously. By using a skill that generates Hatred you can get it back faster, though.

About a year ago we began to realize that the way we were making people depend on their resource for some classes just wasn’t very fun, and so we began to roll out a new skill cost philosophy. Essentially the overall idea is that at any given time (within reason) you should have some option to use a skill and be able to do something, even if you’re out of resource. What that means is we can’t just have skills that depend on resources to use, but there needs to be a mix of skills that do cost resources, potentially resource generator skills, and some free-to-cast skills (maybe with a cooldown).

The witch doctor has had mana recovery skills since forever, the monk has almost always had spirit generators, so it was really just a matter of rolling that philosophy out to the other classes, and demon hunter was the most recent (and visible now that beta is live and we’re exposing all that data).

Bonus! It makes demon hunter build diversity explode like woah.

There’s no word on whether these changes are going to make it into the DiabloWikiDiablo III Beta where players can try them out and compare to the current lackluster DH system. Also, can we just start calling the “hatred spenders,” “Love?” That would sort the DiabloWikiDemon Hunter skills into three types: Hatred, Love, and Discipline. Verbiage problem solved!

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25 thoughts on “More Info on Demon Hunter Skill/Resource Changes

  1. It would be nice to try these things. Plus it’ll breathe new life into the beta… allowing us to try a new array of skills, pretty much.

  2. You would think that since the beta highlighted a problem, and the proposed solution can easily be implemented then you would use the beta to test it rather than wait for the full release which has been delayed?
    Would prefer ‘Vengeance’ instead of ‘hatred’ as a resource name as the meaning better reflects the DH motives.

    • But why would damaging demons spend vengeance? Wouldn’t everything that hurts demons generate vengeance? It makes as little sense as attacks that generate hatred instead of sating it and thusly making it receed… oh wait…

      So yeah… hatred is basically the same as the wow hunter class’s focus resource now…

    • Do you really believe that the F&F beta is the reason they saw the problem?  They probably knew they were changing it even before the F&F started.

      • If that was the case then they would have probably changed it before the closed beta started instead of going through the whole f&f beta with the old system… and that was after changing around the interface in the early stages of the f&f beta and categorizing things in the skill window… you can tell that they originally intended the hatred skills to be together instead of in two different categories because of the icons… while the monk and barb skills are color coded with all the icons of the spirit/fury generators being one color and all the spenders being another color… notice on the dh the discipline stuff is almost all purple and everything that used to cost hatred is orange or yellow… I wouldn’t be surprised if they recolor a lot of the icons of the dh skills to put them in line of the existing trend…

        • six times you … do you know what it even means?

          The F&F beta build is the same build the press saw way back in June so you think they only saw it was broken 2 weeks ago?  Besides this is Blizzard do you really think it would only take them 2 weeks to change the class?  Even if it was “just” a spreedsheet change.  

          Besides, read what the blue said, “About a year ago we began to realize that the way we were making people depend on their resource for some classes just wasn’t very fun, and so we began to roll out a new skill cost philosophy”  They knew it, it just took them time to get it right. 

          About the skill UI new look. They knew it was going to change and really it wasn’t that big of a change in look from the way it was 3 days ago to how it looks today. 

          • stop making excuses for blizzard 

            the company wide internal beta began May 1st

            so during those 4 months they realized there was something wrong with the DH’s system, but did nothing about it ?

            instead, they released the F&F beta and let people play and test a system they knew they were going to change in 2 weeks ? 


          • Yeah I know it sounds so unrealistic right? Maybe they should have just delayed the F&F 2 more weeks. Or maybe, they should have said that this beta is less about bugs and fixes and more about server testing… O wait they did.

  3. One of the biggest problems DH has, has nothing to do with hatred but rather with Discipline. Ever since the announcment of the DH´s dual Hatred/Discipline resource, I´ve wanted to make Disc skills heavy DH, mostly because I find it too be more interesting then Hatred skills heavy DH (also since I loved my trapsin in D2). But there is (currently) a huge problem,  Discipline is extremly limited (I believe caped at 30) and there is no skill or passive that regains or regenerates Discipline. If you for a Disc heavy build, 5/6 or 4/6, you can use your Discipline skills in one battle, and then, since Discipline is slowest regenerating resource, you either get to spend next several minutes waiting for Discipline to recharge or proceed completly gimped with only one or two skills available.

    After some digging I found that runed Multishot can give back Discipline (1 Disc return per hit enemy, up to 9 returned Discipline). And there is a passive which reduces Disc costs by, I think, 10%. And thats all the aid Disc DH has. Rune which has to be high level to be useful (if r7 rune gives up to 9 Disc, my guess would be thar r1 rune gives up to 2 Disc) and passive which only reduces Disc costs by relativly small amount. Everything else is either general purpose or Hatred specific. As somebody who would very much like to play viable DH with 5 Discipline skills, I find that pretty discouriging, that Blizzard is “steering” DH to use mostly/fully Hatred skills and only use Discipline skills as a supplement.

    Edit: While I´m no game designer nor do I make myself out to be one, I think inclusion of passive that switches around max amount of Hatred with max amount of Discipline would help greatly, so that instead of 100 H and 30 D, DH with that passive would have 30 H and 100 D. Of course he/she would be unable to use costlier Hatred skills (that require more than 30 Hatred) but thats the whole point of Discipline DH, to do most of your dmg/CC/utility from Discipline skills.

  4. I was kind of thinking something like this would happen, for the same reasons (ie when I realized everyone else had “free” skills).
    Although when I look at all of the DH skills, they still seem kind of off, particularly when comparing everyone’s unruned skills.  The other classes seem quite a bit more varied in terms of base defense/utility/debuffing abilities – DH’s have lots of movement skills (well, so’s the barbarian), and THREE slow skills.  Caltrops seems incredibly redundant now that the other two actually generate a resource AND deal damage un-runed, even with the larger area/duration.  I’m actually wondering if mid-late game demons hunters will be more like glass cannons than even wizards (who have armor skills, diamond skin, frost nova, wave of force, slow time, etc).

    • Excellent points. She has escapes and snares, but nothing to hold the line, nothing which lets her stand up to danger, even if only temporarily.
      As to the main issues w/ the DH, I think there were ways to let her do damage/escape/whatever w/o having to go the Spirit/Fury paradigm. Sure, a lot of those ideas involve runes or higher level passives (which doesn’t help out her problems in the early game). But the Wizard has a similar set up, and she appears to be fine in the first few levels w/o runes. If they moved some skills around, I’m sure it would work out fine before you’d need to start using runes/traits to avoid Hatred starvation. As for Discipline, I think it’s fine as is, but the skills need a little more work. Discipline is basically a shared cooldown system for utility skills, which I like. The skills themselves, however need polish; Discipline skills are a little bland thus far.

  5. I didn’t think enough on it, but it seems to me the DH and monk resources are not that much different anymore in mechanics. DH’s a bit more complex and that’s it. In the end, after the quote:

    “The witch doctor has had mana recovery skills since forever, the monk has almost always had spirit generators, so it was really just a matter of rolling that philosophy out to the other classes, and demon hunter was the most recent.”

    it seems to me that the mechanic is the same for all classes. So, why bother with different resources at all?? It adds some bit of new flavor when exchanging classes, but I guess I’ll like some better than others and thus the characters that use the ones I don’t like, will be less played by me.

    • If you think the mechanic is the same for all classes, you aren’t paying attention. DH’s resource auto-regens, the Monks/Barbs don’t. This means the Monk/Barb are required to use *generators* to do *anything*. The DH has that option, but is not required to do so. That’s a huge difference and I love it. She now has the most varied potential skill setup in the game, IMO. Well, except maybe the WD.

      • yovargas, I would agree with your point if the auto-regen was fast enough to be useful in a battle. For what’s being said since it’s had the recovery speed halved, it only helps when you wander around searching for monsters, but in a big fight DH is required to use *generators* to do *anything*. I didn’t play though, so I could be wrong.

        However, none of you touched on the most important point for me: will I shun playing a class because I don’t like its resource recovery mechanics? The blue posts talk about *FUN* while playing. It seems to me it’ll be more fun for most people (because of less work/complication) to play the WD and the wizard. Please comment on that.

    • I was thinking the same, with the DH having dual resources spending one should help replenish the other to make it unique to other characters resource systems.

      • As i mentioned before, Hatred should start out having a crazy regen rate that would go down as you get more Discipline, and all Hatred skills should generate Discipline…

  6. I hate to say it but I agree, Demon Hunter is now the WoW hunter class. You blow your resource early and the rest of the fight alternate between a generation ability when empty and a consumption ability when not. If you’re in a pinch you use a defensive ability. Next: DH’s gain pets.

    Of all the classes, DH is the least desirable for me to play.

  7. Is it only me, or there are basically only 2 resource systems in the game: mana-like and gen/spen?
    Monk: Generator/spenders
    Barbarian: Generators/spenders + degeneration
    Demon Hunter: Generator/spenders + regeneration

    Wizard: Mana + Fast regeneration
    Witch Doctor: Mana

  8. On hindsight, how many options do you have when your basic assumption for the resource is that you get it and then you spend it? It’s still a long shot from D2, and even if the resource systems are not very different in generating + spending, the details should give every class a distinct playstyle. Mana for all characters didn’t really work in D2. This is actually why I like that Blizz North didn’t do D3, since in D2 they copied a lot of stuff from D1 making it bigger without thinking about the consequences.

  9. Check the Demon Hunter skill calculator.  There are now “hatred generators” and “hatred spenders.”

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