More Details about the Mystic in Reaper of Souls


Blizzard has revealed a fairly straight-forward description of how they expect the “upgrade one affix” function to work for the Mystic in Reaper of Souls:

The way enchanting works right now (which, bear in mind, may change as we continue internal testing and receive feedback) is that you’d get to choose which affix you re-roll. So the process would be something like: visit Mystic –> select affix to re-roll –> get randomly-generated list of new affixes –> chose single affix from list –> pay material cost –> old affix replaced with new affix –> profit. The plan, at the moment at least, is to make an item account-bound if it’s enchanted.

Mystic-concept1We’re still tinkering with the actual costs and mechanics, as well as some remaining niggly details (like can you re-roll the same affix over and over? should the costs scale with each affix you re-roll? if yes, how much? etc) which is why we haven’t done a grand reveal of the Mystic just yet.

Getting to pick one out of a menu of replacement affixes seems a nice compromise between totally random roulette wheel spin and a lack of randomization fun. Hopefully you’ll be able to reroll to try to get the same affix with a higher value, and not just different affixes.


Update: DiabloWikiWyatt Cheng hopped into the thread to present much more detailed info about how the DiabloWikiMystic system is currently designed. The key points he shared:

  • You can only reroll one affix per item, so that item-hunting remains important and you can’t slowly turn one item into a perfect item.
  • You can reroll that affix as many times as you wish, even as it changes.
  • They’re still debating how enchanting Legendary items will work, and if you’ll be able to reroll the inherent affixes or just the random ones.
  • You can always stick with the current property, if none of the randomly-selected replacement affixes are upgrades.
  • Here’s a quote from Wyatt’s post; click though to read the whole thing, plus an addition from Lylirra as well:

    Here’s an excerpt from his lengthy explanation:

    Value: It’s important for the actual hunt for the loot to still matter
    How enchanting supports this: As currently designed, you are only allowed to reroll ONE property on an item. In this way, each item can only be changed so much from its original state. This allows enchanting to feel meaningful, while still allowing lots of room for players to resume hunting for an even better “base item” to enchant into an even better item.

    DiabloWikiLylirra added some more comments after the initial reply:

    Hey that’s cool, instead of just a direct reroll of some crap affix then stuck with a worse item like ‘why did I ever do this..’ you’ll be selecting your own fate? Sweet, now the devs are using their thinking caps when it comes to items!
    Lylirra: We’ll see how everything pans out, but that’s just the current thinking. As with all features in game development, it’s very likely enchanting will undergo some changes before it ships (for various reasons: feedback, technical issues, balance issues, etc). I just wanted to share an idea of how this particular service of the Mystic might feel and maybe even generate some discussion on the topic. 🙂

    i’d like to learn more about the “randomly generated list of new affixes”. What will they include?
    Lylirra: No details to share right now! I’m totally going to be “that guy” and encourage you to stay tuned. (I know, I know. At least I didn’t drop a “soon,” right? :P)

    Sounds like we’ll probably get a full Mystic reveal come Blizzcon. My top request? Footspeed upgrade — waiting for her to hobble from the damn spiderweb out the doorway after you rescue her in Act One always gives me the shakes.

    Wyatt Cheng eventually jumped in with big official info blast. He even used color in the text and formatting, so you know it’s serious:

    There still needs to be an element of “random” involved as well as limitations for this system to work. Otherwise literally every single person would be running around with godly gear in no time.

    Random element: the list of replacement stats.
    Limitation: The cost and/or amount of re-rolls we can perform.

    The Mystic should and will be a supplementary factor of itemization, not something that replaces the actual hunt for loot aka the whole name of the game.

    Wyatt: This is spot on.

    We are still iterating heavily on the system, so the exact details may vary from what we talk about today, so let’s talk about our values. By focusing on our design values, even if the exact implementation changes, you”ll be able to see our intent and what’s important to us. Here are some of our design values for enchanting:

    Value: It’s important for the actual hunt for the loot to still matter
    How enchanting supports this: As currently designed, you are only allowed to reroll ONE property on an item. In this way, each item can only be changed so much from its original state. This allows enchanting to feel meaningful, while still allowing lots of room for players to resume hunting for an even better “base item” to enchant into an even better item.

    Value: We want this to be a meaningful end-game sink
    How enchanting supports this:
    1. As previously mentioned, all items that are enchanted will be bound to account
    2. Even though you are allowed to reroll only ONE property, you can reroll that property over and over. For example, suppose an item has 200 str, 200 vit, 80 res all, +1200 Life on Kill and +400 Life on Hit. You might choose to reroll the +1200 Life on Kill and get +87 Hitpoints per second. You can then reroll the +87 Hitpoints per second and get +4 gold pickup radius. You can reroll the “mutable” stat as many times as you want, but the other 4 stats (200 str, 200 vit, 80 res all and +400 Life on Hit) are now “locked in” and cannot be rerolled.
    3. We want to ensure enchanting is meaningful on Legendary items. We are working hard to make sure Legendary items are awesome. If we want enchanting to be a meaningful end-game sink, it needs to work on the best items in the game. It has not yet been determined whether this means you can enchant the “guaranteed” properties of a Legendary, or if you can only reroll the “random” properties of a Legendary. This aspect of the design is still under iteration but at the end of the day we want enchanting Legendary items to be worthwhile.

    Value: We want to avoid “Buyer’s Remorse”
    How enchanting supports this: Have you ever played an RPG with an enchanting system that sometimes randomly made the item worse? Since we’re allowing the result to be random, it’s possible that your choices for enchanting are worse than the property you’re replacing. Oftentimes this can lead to a feeling of dread when you begin the enchanting process. Or maybe you re-enchant the item over and over hoping to at least get something better than what you started but you get unlucky and run out of money or reagents before you get a good roll! To mitigate this, when we present you the list of options one of the options is ALWAYS the original property. So if you don’t like the new options you can always choose to keep the old one. Now you can enchant with peace-of-mind.

    Standard disclaimer. Enchanting is a work-in-progress. Expect it to change before it’s done, but this is a glimpse at the current state.

    Comments

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    1. Two questions:
      1. When do you pay gold/materials in this timeline of the mystic? I hope you have to pay before you get to see the possible new affixes. Otherwise, you can keep walking back and forth to her until she offers exactly what you want. Everyone (rich) would then have uber items to their exact specifications quickly.

      2. Once you pay, can you back out and not enchant if the affixes aren’t to your liking (having incurred the cost for no service) or must you pick one of the new affixes and enchant your item, even if that makes it worse?

    2. Ok, I officially have given up on this game. Blizzard simply suck at itemization if they think that this is a good idea.

      • That’s really cynically considering this is still a work in progress….. How else would you rather have it? Select exaclty what you want? Hey, lets turn that thorns damage into 6 crit % and we never have to use the mystic more than once!

        Because that will make the item hunt more rewarding right? Getting what you want when you want it…..?

        Better yet, lets play like the console version, and hack every item into existence whenever we desire!!

        Seriously, if you given up on the game, please move along. Sorry, but wow… Mystic should be an option to gamble your affixes to get better ones, not to get exactly what you want. You would never have to hunt for items again…

        Sheesh, jaded much?

        • I wonder if Mystic do something more than rerolling affixes…
          Like enchant items with some random % etc

        • I argued with Azzure over IM about this, and from what I can tell he’s with pretty much everyone on thinking the overall variety of useful affixes is crappy. (The devs have acknowledged as much, without offering any path to improving it.)

          However I don’t know what he’s got against this Mystic system, and he seemed to just be generally vexed with the overall itemization.

          • Really don’t blame the guy. There’s so much that could go wrong here, and they haven’t really shown a real indication anything has been fixed other than some Hydra on kill and bigger numbers.

          • The very core mechanic of a Diablo game is randomization. When the dev team for D3 changed, the new guys apparently realized as much when they threw D3 together but drew the wrong conclusions from that insight. In my opinion, D3 gameplay suffers fatally from the fact, that production focus was spent almost exclusively the wrong of two different kinds of randomization:

            a) elaborate complexity; meaning all randomization of adventure elements, like terrain, monsters, quests, mini-events, shrines/story tomes/other clickables, etc. Basically the sum of random elements that keep the gameplay fresh through a distinct feeling that there might always still be something new and rare to discover. This, however, requires production of a lot more content in the forms of design, art, sound, programming and story (hence ‘elaborate’) than could be fitted into a single playthrough. D3 is severely lacking in this regard (due to time/budget constraints?), meaning it has the power to randomize the gameplay experience but has almost nothing to randomize in the pool – there is no excess content beyond one or two playthroughs.

            b) generic complexity; meaning all randomization of values, which is what D3’s reward (item) system is based on almost exclusively. Production of this kind of content is much cheaper, because it’s done almost effortlessly in comparison to what’s described in a), requiring merely the definition of number ranges and tuning. This is what D3 offers in abundance – minus the balancing – to a degree of bitter frustration when you realize the poor/missing quality of the whole system design (randomization rules) which only makes it worse.

            [Gear is a bit of a special case between these two: While it mostly relies on value randomization, they did indeed also design excess content (almost 20 tiers of gear artwork per class, which are spread in use beyond the first playthrough of the game) for it. They entirely failed to make good use of that (players barely remember any gear designs from the lvl 1-59 range), though. The reasons behind gear/rewards being the only fully developed system and at the same time this system being randomized far beyond the individual player’s influence, are easily guessed in consideration of the real-money auction house’s prominent implementation.]

            What does all this nonsense have to do with the mystic?

            The mystic’s enchanting service is another band-aid solution, attempting to lower the frustration the over-randomized gear/reward system’s effects are causing. It’s important to note that they’re trying to address the item system’s effects, not the item system itself (RoS ‘smart loot’ is another example for this). They’re not trying to correct the mistakes of the core system, they’re trying to further obscure them. Either because that’s the cheaper approach or because they’re actually very happy with their generic gear complexity that sends weary players straight to the auction house. Remember that even Blizzard acknowledged the auction house to be at the root of the problem – while categorically denying its removal at the same time.

            Enchanting actually sounds like a great system to add, but its execution and consequences will never prove to be well designed in the light of the low-concept purpose it is created for. A better, more honorable and future-proof solution would have been to completely rework the whole item system and affix consolidation receiving some extra thorough attention in the course of that.

            • This is a great post worth reading which addresses the core of the issue in a way that Blizzard won’t acknowledge. As such I agree with it and what Azzure is getting at.

              The core of itemization is broken and Blizzard continues to waste their development time on band-aid fixes even now in preparation of the expansion. Now is the best opportunity to completely rewrite the broken elements and yet instead they are building another system on top of a broken foundation. The mystic cannot fix itemization when the core affixes themselves are broken.

              When the mystic gives me the choice between enchanting an item with “+1 max zombie dogs” or “Your Gargantuan can rip a non-elite in half once per minute” then we’ll have something worth talking about. I can’t get excited over making an item merely usable by removing thorns or globe pickup radius.

            • Exactly spot on. And that’s how it was in Diablo 2, as well. Diablo 2 also had the problem where most of the random maps didn’t have anything worth farming (boss runs to the max!). I think Loot Runs are the best thing I’ve seen in all the RoS news so far, assuming they’re actually good and random. But you’re right, the whole item affix system is kaput in this game; until they reign in the exponential power creep, only idiots won’t look for crits and main stats.

        • It’s indeed a work in progress, but that doesn’t change much. This D3 team is going to struggle to get things right. A Mystic that re-rolls stats isn’t going to change the real problems with Diablo 3.

          • This is relevant since they have said “The Mystic will solve all of D3’s problems”. Oh wait, they didn’t actually say that….

        • I actually misunderstood Lylirra’s initial post. I thought that you got to choose the exact affix you wanted (eg Crit) and you just pay a cost to get it. I was angry that they removed the random element to it, but it appears I misunderstood how it works.

          The system is actually pretty good. Though I wish they would do a bit more (or at least show) that they are working on more interesting itemization that actually influences builds.

        • Yes you can change thorns to crt but 1% only. If you want it become 2%.You need to pay double resource on it trible for 3% etc ( you need to pay a huge amount of resources to get 6% crt) .

          Introduce account bond material for mystic further encourge player to kill monster than AH. It is very possible that you get your 6%crt item on the way you are hunting your resource to your next upgrade.

          It is about choice.Keep killing monster You will get 1 : luck and you get great items or 2 you get resources to upgrade.

      • Its true game has many flaws..but this Mystic is step into good direction.
        Btw you given up on the game from th start when you did not fulfill your promises of maintaining the economy website.

        So please stop being crybaby.

      • No, you are not. The moment the addon will be availible you will be all over it. It’s inevitable. It’s in all crybabies blood to come back. Even if for the reason to cry a little more. This, or the alternative would be to call you a moron because you don’t agree with a feature that was not yet final.

    3. I don’t like this way. It should be: you select a current affix, you pay, and the affix is replaced by a randomly rolled new affix.

      • From my understanding, is it will randomly generate a list of different affixes that you can choose from. Isn’t that better?

        Example: 96dex – Re-roll at mystic

        Choices: 145 intellect
        22% critical hit damage
        +7 pick up radius
        +245 armor

        Choose one, or keep previous affix. And wallah! Re-roll affix later to *gamble* on your item again.

        Honestly, I find the idea of this pretty awesome. You haters keep hating, and I’ll keep on playin =P

        • well I certainly hope it doesn’t show the numbers

          that would be totally lame

          showing the affixes would be fine, but you should have to take a chance on the final stats

      • Wyatt posted again and said that the way it is now, you pay, get a random group of affixes, then choose. There is also always an option to select the original affix as a way to cancel out if you so choose.

    4. url]http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9882178291?page

      http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9882178291?page=3#41
      Wyatt chimes in, some more explanation on ideas behind the system, goals, etc.
    5. Here is the reality no matter what they are implementing:

      They are going to make sure that revenue from the RMAH is not impacted and even encouraged. You can clearly tell that this is the case from the examples they have mentioned

      So it seems to me these are the options they are going with:

      1: Limited re-rolls on each item. This means you can spend a bunch of gold/$ and get completely screwed by RNG.

      2: Unlimited re-rolls but the gold cost will be outrageous enough that a normal person playing will not be able to afford it. Buy some gold from RMAH Bro!

      They are going to go with what makes the most sense for RMAH rather than what is ACTUALLY fun/good for the game.

      • And let me guess, any cost above 1 is too much and obviously driving the player to the RMAH.

      • I enjoy a tin foil hat from time to time myself, but arguing that they’re driving us all to use the RMAH by making all the best items in the game BoA is kind of a stretch.

        • No Flux, I do not have any problem with BoA items.
          That is NOT the point.

          Considering that part of the itemization “fix” is with the mystic, the GOLD COST to re-roll an affix is the point I am concerned about.

          Based on Wyatt Chengs response to the original question, he ALREADY gave not just HINTS but EXAMPLES of their vision of the Mystic which involves either heavy restrictions OR an insane gold cost as an “endgame sink”.

          I find it funny that people support heavy gold sinks (GEMS already did that) on a CORE feature of the expansion/itemization.

          Meanwhile, on the console, crafting costs are reduced. Reason for that? Oh there is no AH. The PC version of Diablo 3 has its core game/itemization designed WITH the presence of the AH in mind and I have reason to believe based on Wyatt cheng’s response that it will continue to be the case in Reaper of Souls.

          TLDR:

          On console, you ACTUALLY play Diablo 3 and everything was designed without any use of AH.
          On PC, even after suffering for 1 years+, they are still talking about restrictions/ heavy gold sinks. Really?

          If you are self-found strictly, I am certain that you are screwed as you are not going to have that kind of gold lying around. So it’s back to playing AH 3 or paying bobby bucks in which none of it suits my taste.

          Bare in mind the last time an end game sink was introduced, it is 20 million gold (Marquise gems). I barely have enough gold to keep crafting amulets with my demonic essences which is 100k.

    6. I wonder if it will be restrained to a single affix for rerolling OR you can rerolling as many of the affixes on it.
      Example:

      You find a Mighty Sword as a Barbarian ILV 63 with these stats:
      863 DPS
      +126 INT
      +1201 Life on Kill
      +26% Critical Hit Damage
      Socket

      Would we be able to reroll the:
      +126 INT, +1201 Life on Kill, or even the +26% Critical Hit Damage, if we had the money and resources, or will it be constrained to just 1 Affix to reroll.

      Sometimes you get a well rolled item but its not for your class, like a pair of gloves with +Dex, CC, CD, IAS, and Thorns for say a Wizard. I’d hope you could spend money / resources on rerolling the affixes as you so choose. Provided that the rerolling price isn’t through the roof in costs.

    7. I think that the (mostly) useless affixes like bleed, slow, fear still get in the way of the affix pool. Also yes, I fear that as long as the RMAH exists, every game decision will depend on it.

    8. What this shows is that it’s still pretty much work in progress… and they hardly have anything nailed down.

      Other that “we’re adding the mystic with transmog and enchanting”.
      Makes me wonder about the rest of reveal trailer features, and how far along they are. :/

      • So hard to believe there will be new features at blizzcon, with just 2 months to work on them. Specially cause those 2 months will be mixed with preparing blizzcon.

        captcha: i love deadlines

    9. Updating the Mystic page in the wiki and wondered about one thing… how does training figure into this? Will the Mystic need to be trained to 10 levels, like the other Artisans? If so, what does training do for her, other than giving her a shinier wagon? Does she gain the ability to roll higher level affixes or something?

      • Actually, I suppose it’ll be level 12 or lvl 15 or something, as they’ve said more recipes for jeweler and smith, and presumably they’ll enable those via higher training levels. Same principle, though.

        • Speaking of recipes,It would be cool to find like an Affix scroll which u can add to the random pool you draw. They can get really creative with this but I highly doubt it…

          Captcha: black and white

        • They’ll surely expand on crafting but as we’ve seen during the last few patches, new recipes don’t have to mean addtional artisan levels. Designing those waggon upgrades takes time and money while at the same time providing absolutely no replayability due to their account-wide nature.

          They already produced the mystic’s waggon designs, so surely there will be lvl 1-10 upgrades for her, too. Upgrades/recipes might simply add affixes to her service. You start out with being able to reroll to useless stuff like Thorns, Poison Resistance and +Healing and then add %Life, All Resist, +Damage etc. on the way up.

          • I mentioned this training issue to Elly and the reminded me of the Transmog function of the Mystic. Clearly that’ll tie into training in some way, as you unlock more appearance looks with higher levels. But I still don’t see quite how training works with enchants. Maybe you get higher potential values on each affix with higher training?

            The whole issue of mystic training seems sort of pointless anyway, since everyone who has been playing since launch should have the gold/mats to upgrade her to max level immediately.

      • Maybe some transmog plans we will get when leveling her.
        Easiest way they can make higher levels needed for higher ilevels.
        It would be nice when we would get for affix options when leveling Mystic. Starting from one random at lvl1, to 4-6 at lvl10. One of many options they can implement.

      • I dare say as you level her you’ll get access to different types of affixes. No doubt the crappy affixes like thorns will be lower down and the ones like crit chance will be at later levels.

        Speaking of thorns… weren’t they going to do some changes to thorns to make it a more useful stat?

    10. Yet another example of one of Blizzard’s few ideas with actual potential being ruined by being overly conservative.

      Items still need 3-6 mods as specific properties in order to even be worth looking at. Fixing one is nice, it still leaves you with a lot of salvage bait.

      • This is true as things stand now but even if everything else remained exactly the same, this would be a pretty big boost in useful items. Specially on the lower end of the item hunt, meaning you could work your way up faster.

        And *hoooopefully* they can address the “still need 3-6 mods as specific properties” issue. (I’m not holding my breath either but at least they’ve acknowledged that it’s a problem they want to fix.)

      • I don’t think they should give us anymore power than this, otherwise it would take away from the loot hunt and random natures of finding items that don’t suck on your own. Even changing one affix has potential to make a lot of items damn near perfect. A Skorn with INT instead of VIT or LS for example.

    11. Man, Diablo fans have become sooooo cynical. I understand that Bliz has disappointed us but yeeesh, I feel like Blizz could offer to pay you every time you find gold and some would still find a way to complain….

      I like this system as Wyatt described it. It’s free from abuse, still keeps the item hunt meaningful, could be a good gold sink, de-incentivizes the AH, and frankly just sounds like a fun thing to mess around with. Will this by itself fix all D3’s item problems? No, but if they added this right now and did nothing else, it would be an improvement. (At the very least, it could potentially solve my biggest item pet peeve of rolling the wrong “mainstat” on an otherwise great item.)

      • I completly agree, loved how the items will become BoA, how it’ll be a gold sink (specialy if the price increases by each try), how its limited to only one affix (meaning you wont be able to make a perf item, go hunt another one), over all nothing hugely bad, yet people want to try find something to complain about.

    12. in short, even more handholding. who would have thought. the toddlers of the already thinned out community of preteens are cheering

    13. This is a great post worth reading which addresses the core of the issue in a way that Blizzard won’t acknowledge. As such I agree with it and what Azzure is getting at.

      The core of itemization is broken and Blizzard continues to waste their development time on band-aid fixes even now in preparation of the expansion. Now is the best opportunity to completely rewrite the broken elements and yet instead they are building another system on top of a broken foundation. The mystic cannot fix itemization when the core affixes themselves are broken.

      When the mystic gives me the choice between enchanting an item with \+1 max zombie dogs\ or \Your Gargantuan can rip a non-elite in half once per minute\ then we’ll have something worth talking about. I can’t get excited over making an item merely usable by removing thorns or globe pickup radius.

    14. The usefulness/uselessness will depend on internal testing (and imo, blizz is bad at internal testing – see permawrath, “months to beat inferno”, etc. …)

      They are basically giving you good shoulders – items without tons of affixes (i.e. put life % or double vit on a lvl 70 main stat, vit, vile ward and you’re good to go) and not exactly fixing your teeming necklace problem, since the number of possible affixes of amulets is enormous. Even if mystic could just replace any stat on your ammy with 10% CC, it would still be a problem.

    15. If we didn’t have an auction house would the itemization even be an issue ?

    16. QUOTE

      That's really cynically considering this is still a work in progress..... How else would you rather have it? Select exaclty what you want? Hey, lets turn that thorns damage into 6 crit % and we never have to use the mystic more than once!
      
      Because that will make the item hunt more rewarding right? Getting what you want when you want it.....?
      
      Better yet, lets play like the console version, and hack every item into existence whenever we desire!!
      
      Seriously, if you given up on the game, please move along. Sorry, but wow... Mystic should be an option to gamble your affixes to get better ones, not to get exactly what you want. You would never have to hunt for items again...
      
      Sheesh, jaded much?

      I actually misunderstood Lylirra’s initial post. I thought that you got to choose the exact affix you wanted (eg Crit) and you just pay a cost to get it. I was angry that they removed the random element to it, but it appears I misunderstood how it works.

    17. If the ‘material cost’ is gold, then Blizzard is outright stupid.
      Hopefully it is more like the “new” crafting recipes.

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