Should Legacy Gear be the Best Gear?


Kill us to feed a Demon Hunter.

Feed them to a Demon Hunter!

Interesting fan debate about the recent resurgence in popularity of some legacy legendary items for the Witch Doctor, and the more general issue of special abilities only found on items that can no longer be obtained.

Should Legacy Gear be the Best Gear?

So now the best way to do Grifts is for Demon Hunters to get as much hatred as possible and thats through the Reapers Wraps + Blood Vengeance combo with health globes. There are a few ways in the game to spawn health globes but one of the best if not the best way to do that is with legacy items for “Zero Dog” Witch Doctor items with the Zombie Dog – Final Gift rune and using Sacrifice. When you spawn more Zombie Dogs with this rune they can spawn health globes.

Legacy items like Homunculus and other items that can lower the cooldown by Zombie Dogs by up to 9 seconds is just HUGE. Before the 2.1.2 patch, these items were not a problem. Now these items/tactics are a problem with the current “meta”, they are not obtainable anymore. So you are SOL if you dont have them. I dont believe that BIS or best strategies should involve legacy items.

…if your group does not have one, then you are automatically out of the top of the leaderboards. (Unless you play Seasons)
Tyvalir: While I realize the discussion in this thread has become more playful (and thus is relatively harmless), the title itself is misleading. At this time, we are not actioning (or planning to action) players who are using legacy items to support or run a zero dog build.

Gonna go ahead and lock this, folks. Thanks for your cooperation!

This Zero Dog legacy gear is interesting as it’s not even very useful for the Witch Doctor. It’s only a thing since it makes more Mongrels, and when they die they can produce health orbs, which Demon Hunters turn into Hatred, which is the only bottleneck on the massive damage now possible with the redesigned M6 item set. (As described in our recent strategy guide.)

On the larger issue though, what do you guys think of Legacy gear with properties that can’t be obtained anymore? It’s usually a bad thing, since most item changes are buffs, but every now and then we see something like this ZDog trick.

Some players don’t like it since the items can’t be found anymore, and with all legs now BoA, they can’t be traded or bought. So it seems unfair and exclusive; a bonus today based entirely on gear you happened to save from a year or more ago. (And doesn’t everyone save all their gear forever, since we can never hope to fill our “ridiculously huge” stash space?) On the other hand, it’s very rare that anyone saved the old stuff, or that the old stuff has any use today, and it gets into that “why do you care how someone else plays the game?” question.

Because Leaderboards, I guess. Personally I think it’s mostly just jelly, but citing leaderboards makes for a much more compelling, semi-objective argument, so that’s what peeps are doing.

Is the ZDog legacy gear actually impacting the Leaderboards? Apparently not. Look at the two player, three player, and four player Era, non-seasonal leaderboards, and there are a few Witch Doctors in the top teams, at least in the 2 and 3 player groups. For comparison, check the Seasonal leaderboards and you’ll find roughly equivalent highest GRifts, and there are actually quite a few *more* WDs than you see atop the Era leaderboards. Seasonal: two player, three player, and four player.

The Blue said no plans to nerf or remove the old items, though I suspect that’s entirely about how impactful it is. If some legacy gear somehow turned into a cheap trick to clear GR100, by enabling old style Exploding Palm or Rimeheart, then the devs would pound that nail flat in the interests of balance. Would they be right to do it?

Should Legacy items be nerfed if they become top quality?

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  1. What annoyed me more is one of the devs said that he liked the zero dog concept and will try and keep it relevant somehow when the game development progressed but until now, nothing has been done to actually support the build or bring it back.

    • I am fairly sure the dev wasn’t talking about a support build, and as far as i know sacrifice build with the new homonculus is viable (you know, zero dog build)

      • the dev was smart enough to give a vague comment as to not pigeon hole himself.

        as for the "updated" build, yes it exists but have you tried it? its clunky and not 1/2 as fun and they should just bring the old build back.

  2. Leave it be. I'm of the opinion some aspects of online gaming should work exactly like the real world and this is one of them – there's rare stuff in this world you will never be able to get and that's OK. Don't be an entitled jelly mofo about it.

    Plus it's non-season anyway, let people have fun with their legacy stuff.

    • This. If some people don't want Legacy items to be relevant they can now play in a game mode where there aren't any. Seasons last long enough that dedicated players can get any gear they want, they don't really need non-Seasonal characters for that.

  3. If anything is broken, it's the fact that 1 Demon Hunter getting fed health globes is stronger than 2 maxed out characters.

  4. I think it’s amazing that players found a way to make legacy gear useful again and I wouldn’t want to take that away from them. But if feeding DHs endless health globes dominates the leaderboards it simply isn’t fair that new players can’t compete. Thus the ideal solution would to implement an internal cooldown on how often the health globes can drop from the Zombie Dogs. Hopefully a happy medium could be established where the legacy gear remains viable for a top tier support build but isn’t mandatory for competing to top the leaderboards.

    This does bring up the broader issue of the poor design of the resource system. The initial design goal appears to have been for players to alternate using their spenders for burst damage with using their generators to replenish resource. In practice, every top build seeks to either become self-sustaining without a generator or just circumvent the use of resources entirely. And when a build that is balanced without being self-sustaining (M6) suddenly is made self-sustaining it is going to be grossly overpowered.

    I would love to see the next Diablo scrap the resource system, relying solely on cooldowns, cast time, and/or charge mechanics (like the Assassin from D2 had) to limit the use of certain skills. I think it would be really neat for players to take multiple skills we would otherwise consider spenders and be able to pick the right tool for the job. For example, a Crusader could use Blessed Hammer as their skill of choice but have Shield Bash in reserve for powerful single enemies. Obviously, other changes would have to be made to make this viable (such as setting aside two skill slots specifically for unlimited attacks and reworking the +skill damage concept).

  5. Shouldn't seasonal HC be the only leaderboards anyone cares about?

  6. I don't particularly care – I think it's fairly neat that someone thought of an interesting build using old items. Although, if the build became super OP, then I think it should be looked at, but i guess that's independent of whether it's legacy gear or not.

    It also makes me think of how far itemisation has changed and I hadn't realised it, and not necessarily in a good way. Before this reinvention of the z-dog build I had forgotten that old items could have reduced cooldown for specific abilities, which is actually pretty interesting and I think better than the blander blanket CDR we have today.

    It also raises another point too on which I commented in a previous news post
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/threads/blizzards-philosophy-on-retroactive-item-changes.865758/
    that I really don't see why they just don't retroactively change gear. It would just stop all this legacy bs in its tracks, and the only reason they seem to not retro is to artificially prolong the item hunt.

  7. if someone had the insight to play this game from day 1, save some piece of gear that literally STANK until now and then suddenly found a use for it … god bless. They deserve to reap the rewards.

    Especially when you consider the limitations to stash space. Holding onto a piece of gear under these conditions of stash starvation is remarkable.

  8. This is BS if the dev team decided to get rid of my or any ones Legacy Items.
    Some people (not me) paid real money for these items. If people complain that its "un fair" or upset they didnt keep them and that they can never obtain these items now, well bad luck. Its a game .. Get over it.
    ps. One day, just one day I hope we are allowed to re roll our legacy items into something amazing.

  9. I run a firebirds 5 piece with cindercoat and two pieces of Tals set with a Legacy Tal's orb … I get 10 AP on crit with reduced meteor cost of 5 … cheaper spells from cindercoat … stupid gains to fire damage … the bonus from firebirds … and cast meteorstorm infinitely. I havent seen anyone else run my build and it is stupid good.

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