Faster Paragon Leveling coming soon


Blizzard has announced that Faster Paragon Leveling is coming soon. It’s going to be *much* faster to level up once the new figures are implemented, due to much more experience per monster kill. The info came in two forms, a blue forum post from Nevalistis and a follow up by Wyatt Cheng.

We agree that Paragon leveling right now is a bit too slow. We’re currently in the process of iterating on Paragon level experience and how much is needed to gain additional levels. The plan is to reduce the amount necessary to level, and in addition, increasing the amount of experience gained per monster kill.

In addition, I want to clarify that I misread how this tuning was being approached, though the overall goal is the same (i.e. quicker Paragon leveling). The amount of experience needed to gain Paragon levels was actually doubled – however, experience gained per monster kill was drastically increased and outweighs this by a significant margin. To give you a rough estimate, overall you should find that Paragon leveling will be approximately six times faster. I also want to stress that this is an overarching change, and you’ll find that this change impacts the speed of gaining higher Paragon levels more than it does lower ones.

Will this then mean that paragon EXP currently acquired will result in a lower plvl with the next PTR update due to the requirement doubling?
Nevalistis: Paragon level is calculated by raw total experience across all of your characters (with separate pools for Normal and Hardcore), so I don’t believe you’ll see a drop.

Is this something we will see in the next build or will it be a hotfix?
Nevalistis: This will require a patch.

So when you say Paragon leveling is six times faster…six times faster than what? Six times faster than Live?
Nevalistis: Six times faster than the current PTR/Beta build. Sorry for not clarifying sooner! It’s a little hard to compare this system to the live environment because in the new system, you can surpass Paragon 100. As I mentioned before, it’s much easier to notice the increase in leveling speed the higher Paragon level you attain.

Wyatt Cheng added more details in a later explanation. Click through for that.

Hey guys I want to provide some clarity as some of the comments here are misinterpreting the change.

  • You have a Paragon leveling rate that you see now on live. Let’s call that the “Live rate”
  • You have the Paragon leveling rate seen on the PTR, let’s call that the “PTR” rate.
  • You have the new rate that Nevalistis is referring to, we’ll call that “Anticipated 2.0” rate
  • A few important notes.

    1. The shape of the leveling curve changes with respect to current Paragon level. PTR rate and Anticipated 2.0 rate are actually very similar at Paragon level 1-50. But if you look at the rate going from paragon 250=>251, Anticipated rate is faster.
    2. For those of you datamining, datamining won’t tell the whole story on any of this because the XP from monsters changed.
    3. XP from monsters has gone up in Anticipated 2.0 because between NV going away and the monster density being lower than the 1.0.8 numbers we want to make sure players who track their XP/hour don’t suddenly see a huge drop.
    4. When we transition accounts from live to 2.0 when the patch hits, we don’t just add up all your paragon levels. We take the total amount of XP you’ve earned over all the characters on your account, and use that sum to map you onto a paragon level on the new curve.
    5. When Nevalistis said Paragon leveling is approximately six times faster this refers purely to PTR and Anticipated 2.0. This is because PTR rates were disproportionately slow. It was taking 60+ hours to earn some of those higher paragon levels, and “six times faster” means it that might be 10 now. Note that this has nothing to do with live.
    6. It’s hard to compare rates directly between Live, PTR, and Anticipated 2.0 because at the end of the day, Live stops at 100 and PTR/Anticipated 2.0 go forever. I think at the end of the day if you’re trying to “be efficient with your time”, the important thing to remember is #4 – we don’t look at raw levels – we look at your total experience earned, and map that appropriately.

    So can you compare XP per monster killed on 1. Live w/ 5 NV stacks vs. 2. Anticipated 2.0?
    Wyatt Cheng: It varies with level and I don’t remember the exact numbers off the top of my head but our design intent is to offset the loss of XP from 5 stacks and density.

    There are many variables at play as well. Adventure Mode has its own rewards. It’s hard to compare Bounty rewards vs. the benefit of a highly optimized/efficient run. There are more events in the game now. The change from 60 to 70. “Difficulty 2.0”. All of these factors means it doesn’t make sense to do a direct comparison of the XP of any one particular monster – but rather when all factors are put together we don’t want XP rates cut in half compared to live. The XP per monster happens to be one of the tuning variables in our toolbox.

    pool-of-reflection1Good news there, as one of our main complaints about the Paragon 2.0 system as seen in the Reaper of Souls beta is how slow the leveling feels. We debated (lamented) that on the podcast last weekend and things have already improved thanks to the DiabloWikiPool of Reflection which was added in the latest patch. It provides a 25% EXP buff and that plus 9% from a new Hellfire Ring on my follower made a noticeable difference for recent solo play.

    I played a good amount last night, comparing Bounties to Nephalem Rifts since they were buffed in major ways in the new patch (Rifts are now very comparable to Bounties, and better in many ways), and I really noticed the increased experience gain. I gained nearly 4 bars during my play session, including a Paragon level (the display is fixed), and while I had the HR on my follower and I was getting another +50% EXP gain from 3 pieces of Cain’s set, I did not have a Ruby in my hat or a HR equipped, since I’m not really trying for EXP in the beta since it’s just going to be wiped anyway.

    Once bigger exp per monster comes in, and players are using rubies in their hats in the real game post-release, the leveling rate is not going to feel bad at all.

    Tagged As: | Categories: Blizzard People, Blue Posts, Experience, Paragon

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    1. Here we go again.

      Leveling doesn’t suck because it’s slow, leveling sucks because the rewards are minimal at best. Make character development fun, and the players will not notice how slow leveling may be.

      Ugh.

      • Beat met to it Steve.

        I could care less about XP, I want interesting items. (Not talking about just Legendaries here!)

      • Agreed 100%. The current Paragon rewards feel like a joke, whats 250 mainstat when my boots can have 900? Even the good modifiers feel weak because the numbers are so low.

        IMO, the rewards should be quite a bit more significant.

        • I have not put a single paragon point into any attribute since they redid the tabs mid-beta and put more compelling point sinks into the Core tab.

          That said, the whole paragon 2.0 thing is tricky and I don’t see any obvious solution. We wanted shared bonuses so we weren’t stuck with a main like in D3 now, and we wanted bonuses that did more than just boost attributes, and we want the bonuses to be impactful, and we want them to be useful for the long term, and we don’t want them to be totally overpowered so all that mattered was your paragon level.

          How do you combine all those things? Make paragon levels fun and powerful, but not so powerful they outweigh all else, and not too slow and not too fast and useful at level 6 as well as level 600?

          • Paragon would not feel so dull and un-rewarding (while at the same time mandatory to fill affix gaps…)if there were other ways to modify stats in the game, preferably a system of items that dropped from monsters.

            Then Paragon would seem like “icing on the cake” which is fine in that context and it suits its job well. Nothing wrong with the idea of long term grinding, as long as other choices abound for those who do not like the idea, then all is well.

            Paragon and Legendaries are both over emphasized in this game because there are a clear lack of choices, and this makes any imperfection large or small,that much bigger.

            There is nothing happening in between Lengendary drops or Paragon points and its really hurting this game.

          • We’re immensely far from a situation where ‘all that matters is your Paragon level’, we would need to more than double the bonuses across the board to even remotely make this an issue. Even a p800 has only very moderate power derived from his experience, it’s still all about gear, all the time.

            Personally I’d overhaul weak modifiers and increase the good ones by 50% over what they are now. Attributes wise, it feels like moving from a flat bonus to a percentage boost would make perfect sense; there’d be synergy with your equipment, keeping it useful at all gear-power-levels. That’d make them useful without being overpowered, as long as the percentage is balanced. +.25% to +12.5% to mainstat and to vitality would be balanced and tremendously more rewarding than a teeny tiny flat +5.

      • You need both. 60 hours is too much even if the reward at the end is quite good.

        Skill points in Diablo II and feats in D&D 3 were similar, contemporaneous solutions to the problem of how to make character development more interesting. Give the player concrete choices to make as their character levels up, choices that give you significant bonuses and often change how you play the game. Even if you change those systems to give the player free respecs, it’d be vastly more interesting than Paragon 2.0.

        My relatively easy solution that doesn’t require radically overhauling D3: let the player level up skill runes. Give me another Zombie Dog for every five points I put into whatever rune, stuff like that. Really open up the types of builds that are available.

    2. Does it matter really that much when the Paragon level is infinite now?

      Yes, getting from level x to level y would feel “faster” but in the general scope of things, do you really care how fast you are leveling if there is no cap or finish line to reach?

      Cliched as it sounds, but it is about the journey, not the destination.

      • Sure it matters, on PTR its alot slower than on live; PTRx6 should be okay.

        And there is an effective finish line at P800, and you can be sure some people will be racing there (though how attainable such an high level is is anyone’s guess). Given that on most tabs, there’s only a couple very desirable modifiers, I’m guessing that more reasonably, an account that reaches P400 or at most 600 will generally be seen as decently leveled.

    3. Lol by the comments i see Blizzard just can’t please these people…

      People cried alot bcuz D3 didnt have stat points like in D2, as if it was very important and meanful, now Blizzard tries to give these whinners something similar to D2 (but much better) with paragon 2.0 and people still complain…you’ll be happy when you’re dead.

      I’m happy they are adjusting/balancing the exp gain, ALL i want from D3X is to sit down, play a couple of hours, slay some monsters doing bounties/rifts, find 1-2 cool legendaries and gain 1-2 paragon levels, later on hopefuly with some pvp/competitive patch and its a perf d2 sequel i always wanted.

      • Ok… so if you did that for 100 hours of game time, what would you expect to have/be to give you a fulfilling sense of progression? Would it be 100 paragon levels that make you marginally better, faster at finding items that really don’t do much but make a few play styles viable, where you would play that for a few hours, not like it and go back to those hundreds of hours of grinding to try to find another “build changing” leg?

        Or when we see people with paragon levels of 3000 would be see that have accomplished something, when somebody else might have 5000 and then another have 9000?

        I’d rather us go back to having a 99 javazon that was the highest level javazon, but then having to get to 99 as a bowazon. Yes there were limited specs in d2, but that system type could have been much expanded on.

      • you say this is much better than what was in D2, but you haven’t said why or how

        what specifically is so great about this system

        how specifically is it better than D2

        • Well, it isn’t that hard to see why this system is at least on par with what we have have in d2.

          D2’s manual stat system is a simple system that allows you to put points into different stats on level up.

          d3’s paragon system is a simple system that allows you to put points into different stats on level up.

          The difference is that d3’s paragon system has more, and more interesting stats to specialize in, while d2’s limited options made it feel like there was only one optimal way of spending your points.

          I think the reason Glauber didn’t specify what was better with d3’s system was that he, just like me, thinks it’s quite obvious that the d3’s system is superior.(It’s not perfect, but at least superior to d2’s system) This makes me think that ppl who fail to see this just like to whine, because they have nothing more interesting to do.

          • For me, the main difference between D2’s and D3’s stat allocation system is that in D3 these aren’t required to use items. We have more freedom of choice, because the only purpose for Paragons stats isn’t to support our items. It’s a system that stand on its own, unlike the attribute allocation did in D2 and that alone makes in much better in my opinion.

          • Paragon points are virtually meaningless to new players because they HAVE NONE. Its a system that only benefits one type of player and that’s why it sucks.

            Diablo 2’s system was far and away the better system throughout the leveling process. I felt just as good about my character in the early levels as I did later on earning points. Completely accessible to the newb, as much as the grizzled veteran.

            I don’t really see the new players brought in by the expansion smiling when they see paragon 300 toons blowing past them at level 1 via fat paragon bonuses.

            To get full benefit from Paragon is INCREDIBLY grindy, far more time than the vast majority of players will put in. This is why the system in inferior, this is why it will fail in the eyes of most players.

            • To be clear I was speaking from a new players perspective, I am not a new player, I am a player that benefits directly from a reasonable paragon point pool.

      • Good for you. You seem to fit into Blizzard’s target audience, which we already know how to describe…

    4. So I’m curious.

      The current xpac has been shown to yield 4% of live xp. Increase that by a factor of 6, and it’s still 4 times slower than live. Even though xpac enemies are higher level and you have better gear. Imagine if some random level 45 with self found gear leveled faster than current level 60 characters by far. That’s the xpac situation AFTER the * 6 buff.

    5. [quote]1. For those of you datamining, datamining won’t tell the whole story on any of this because the XP from monsters changed.
      2. XP from monsters has gone up in Anticipated 2.0 because between NV going away and the monster density being lower than the 1.0.8 numbers we want to make sure players who track their XP/hour don’t suddenly see a huge drop.[quote]
      Hmm, datamining the exp curve should tell a pretty good story given that XP/hour remains comparable to Live. XP from monster simply offsets the NV and monster density.

      Or am I not getting it?

    6. They need to make Paragon offer interesting rewards.

      I could go thru my list of reward ideas again.

      1. super merc
      2. maphack
      3. special powerful skills / spells

      etc, etc.

      I envisioned it as setting out these impressive rewards that may take 6-12 months to just obtain one of them.

      When you offer weak rewards, and then make paragon levels easier to get, it just feels pointless.

      Its a lot like….well leveling itself.

      It used to be that in a role playing game, leveling from, say, 1-60 was interesting with huge rewards. Then they took away most of the rewards. Then suddenly the only point was playing at max level. So instead of making leveling more interesting….they made it easier to level. Then once at max level, you need something to do…so they add Paragon levels…and then they make the same mistake all over again, with rewards being weak, and then they make Paragon easier to level…lol

    7. live xp farming is nothing ?
      i just want to know 2.0 xp curve.

    8. Guys they are making Paragon leveling faster, which means it’s more fun. TIME TO PREORDER.

    9. For me Paragon 2.0 is awesome… but when you make a new character and you already have high enough PLvL. Because it can speed up leveling significantly.
      The problem is, the higher level your character is, the less important stats from Paragon 2.0 are.

      • Certain stats do lose some significance later on, but not all. Increased resource pools for example are just as useful at level 60 as it is at level 1. Maybe even more so, because you can utilize your resuource much better at that point.

        Similarly, anything that acts as a multiplier stays very relevant later in the game.

        • Players are looking at paragon bonuses too much with an eye on the early game. Sure, .2% more CC or 1% more CD isn’t a big deal in of itself, but look at end game gear and economy in D3. Adding 1% more CC to an item will take the price from 50m to 500m, at the upper edge of quality.

          Every little added point makes a huge difference when you’ve got a character that’s really optimized. So I think we’ll appreciate PPs more in the long run, as improving gear gets really hard and the challenge is to boost your char’s power any way you can.

          • Yah I think that’s bad design. They should move far, far away from .2% bonus rewards per level because it just feels like a huge letdown when you get them. They should instead offer rewards that feel important the moment you get them.

            • Or alternatively decrease the interval you get these small rewards, which is what they’re doing. The end result is the same. It’s worth mentioning though that after a while Paragon leveling will always feel slow, because it has no well defined limit. This is why people shouldn’t focus on getting XP as fast as they can. That way they will always be disappointed, no matter the devs do.

          • That is true. But then look on how long on high Paragon Level(let’s say 250+) will take you to get this 1%, since we get 1 point to each tree every 4 levels. Would spending 50 hours of farming levels would really be worth that 1% CD.

            Yes, that’s the same problem that was in Diablo 2, where 5 points you could spent in stats didn’t mean anything when “dingin” from, for example, 80 to 81.

            I’m NOT against Paragon 2.0. For me personaly it’s just like Diablo 2, where one level gave you exetremly litle when it comes to stats. 20 levels diffrence is big, 1 level diffrence is nothing when it comes to stats.

          • You’re looking at it purely economically, which IMO, is the wrong way, especially when considering character development outside of gear.

            What you said may be true, a tiny bump in stats on an item having an enormous effect on the price, but I think this is a bigger reflection on lack of real gold sinks and poor drop rates, not actual item worth/impact.

            We all know how hard it is to farm upgrades yourself in the current D3 build, so even getting an infinitesimal bump in whatever stat is hard to come by, factor in the lack of true gold sinks, and you got an economy that’s willing to pay sky high prices for bumps in stats whose effects will likely be negligible. I call this poor game design overall, not calculated progression with the end game in mind.

    10. QUOTE

      They need to make Paragon offer interesting rewards.
      
      I could go thru my list of reward ideas again.
      
      1.  super merc
      2.  maphack
      3.  special powerful skills / spells
      
      etc, etc.
      
      I envisioned it as setting out these impressive rewards that may take 6-12 months to just obtain one of them.  
      
      When you offer weak rewards, and then make paragon levels easier to get, it just feels pointless.
      
      Its a lot like....well leveling itself.
      
      It used to be that in a role playing game, leveling from, say, 1-60 was interesting with huge rewards.  Then they took away most of the rewards.  Then suddenly the only point was playing at max level.  So instead of making leveling more interesting....they made it easier to level.  Then once at max level, you need something to do...so they add Paragon levels...and then they make the same mistake all over again, with rewards being weak, and then they make Paragon easier to level...lol

      Agreed totally. The rewards are ****. It’s not about how fast that stuff levels. If I know my merc will gain an aura that boosts movement speed or something I’d be much more interested in obtaining that.

      And yeah, they moved the uninspired progression from leveling to end game so we have something to do, but it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t seem cool or fun.

    11. “Would spending 50 hours of farming levels would really be worth that 1% CD.”
      If these 50h are chores, play another game. This 1% is a bonus for what should be 50h of fun.

    12. I wonder which level I will have with 3×100 + 1×18 after these changes.

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