Diablo 3 Promises "Deep and Engaging Combat" - Diabloii.Net

Diablo 3 Promises “Deep and Engaging Combat”


A fan asked about DiabloWikicooldowns and combat in Diablo III, queries that enabled DiabloWikiBashiok to do his job promoting the features of the upcoming installment in the famed ARPG series.

I don’t think inherently waiting to use a skill is fun, but it certainly reinforces skill-based play as it’s a restriction you have to plan around and use in tactical ways. Obviously resources are the other big limiter, but we like our resource systems to be able to be gamed a little, and if they can be gamed you’re essentially opening the spam gates. That’s fine for some abilities, but not for others. So the question really comes down to should we ensure every skill can be used back to back, or do we throw another limitation on their use so they can stay awesome?

Diablo II was a great game, but I don’t think anyone can argue the combat model was really deep or engaging. People played because they wanted awesome characters, not because it felt really cool to spam blessed hammer millions of times and kite monsters around. For Diablo III we think we can have awesome characters and deep and engaging combat, and we’re not going to get there by just copying the previous game.

I’ve played quite a bit of the Diablo 3 beta, plus dozens of hours of the PvM demos at Blizzcon 2008, 2009, and 2010, (the only public showings of non-beta content) and while I’ve written many thousands of words about those (very enjoyable) play experiences, I’m fairly certain that “deep” and “engaging” were not amongst the adjectives used to describe the combat. Ever. About any version of the game.

I played a fair amount of D2C some months ago, refreshing my memory of what the base game was like, and I have no hesitation in saying that the first Fallen Shaman boss pack you encounter in D2 requires considerably more strategy and tactics than any monster or situation that’s ever been presented in a Diablo III demo. All the demos of D3 have been a lot of fun, but “click until dead” is the extent of the strategy and tactics required, with the number of clicks steadily decreasing over the years.

Combat in the D3 beta has never been deep or engaging, (the fun comes from the skills and the overall experience; the monsters are stupid exp and gold pinatas) but it was a bit closer to that during the early weeks of the beta, when the potential for death from various boss mods was non-negligible. You’d never know it from playing today, but early on you actually had to get out of the way before DiabloWikiMolten and DiabloWikiFrozen bosses blew up, and when you got the first version of DiabloWikiArcane Enchanted, you ran or you died.

Obviously we can’t judge the whole thing from the beta or Blizzcon demos, and we know the Beta is supposed to be this easy in order to make it more “accessible,” etc, etc. That said, the full game better have some pretty damn engaging and tactical and challenging scenarios. Seriously, I do not want to spend my first month of D3 posting news about yet another fifteen page “Dumbed down and disappointing!” forum thread.

Tagged As: | Categories: Blizzard People, Blue Posts, Diablo 3 Beta, Monsters

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  1. for noobs, yes. this is a clicking game, and a mediocre one.

  2. The first 1/8th of the full game is usualy pretty easy ( and tbh it’s not 1/8th, its just 1/8th of normal, which is like 5% of the full game, since we’ll all be spending most of our time in Hell/Inferno ), so it’s hard to make the combat engageing, but I bet Inferno is a whole diferent story.
     

  3. …I rather enjoyed spamming my hammers, even before I could afford nigma.

  4. I’ve found much of my time in the Diablo 3 beta to be quite engaging. Much moreso than the first third of A1 in Diablo 2, at least. I agree that early D2 required a bit more use of tactics, but the very limited choices available to players at that point led to a much less “engaging” experience overall. When the difficulty ramps up in D3 I expect the combat to be a lot more fun overall, and the level cap ensures that Inferno difficulty can be balanced to always be a fair bit of a challenge.

    • I agree. If anything, I feel like I have more options with my skills to use, and that makes some interesting decisions since every skill has it’s own unique traits.

      • D3 beta is very fun, especially in the newest patch with skill runes available. But I think the fun in combat comes entirely from the skills and the basic game structure. The monsters do nothing to enhance that with any kind of tactical behavior or interesting AI, which was my point in the post.

        The closest anything comes is the skeletal summoners now that they make more dudes more quickly, or perhaps the Skeleton King with his occasional retreat and summon AI. But none of those force the player to do more than maybe maneuver slightly, or attack in a different direction.

        • Though that is to be expected in normal difficulty as we already know that monster AI is purposely reduced so new players have more time to adapt to the combat system.

  5. “Diablo II was a great game, but I don’t think anyone can argue the combat model was really deep or engaging. People played because they wanted awesome characters, not because it felt really cool to spam blessed hammer millions of times and kite monsters around.”
    Hmm, I think I just lost my faith into Blizzard. Wait, I mean, Activizzard.
     

  6. So feel free to play D2 while I’m enjoying the D3 combat system. 🙂

    Still dunno which skills I should use with the Demon Hunter. They’re all quite awesome. :/ 

    • That’s not an issue since you can change your build in less than a minute if you don’t like it. Remember, there’s no investment in a character.

  7. I’m so glad not all fansites kiss Blizzard’s ass.

    • True. I don’t want to admit it but I kindof agree here…the combat in D3 so far looks dull. You dont get chased, you dont even have to kite much, you can just go bang-bang-bang at everything till it blows up.
      Again, Jay dear will tell you “It’s just the beta, dears!! You will die, we promise.” Yeah right, like once in the entire game…

      • Doubling the monster HP is a step in the right direction (and I hope we get a chance to beta test it), but agreed that the monster AI itself presents no challenges. Hopefully that changes later in the game.

      • I feel like you haven’t played the game yet. Ive played about 6 hours of the beta (don’t have a key, just shared time), and so far the combat does seem really engaging compared to d2. Every char seems to need different skills for area of effect, single target, and then nuking tough enemies. 
         
        When I build my DH that way, I use 1 hatred generator for AOE groups, 1 for single mobs, and I have one hatred spender for nuking tough aoe groups and one spender for nuking tough single targets. It’s not really necessary in the beta (tell me one part of act 1 normal of d2 that needs ANY strategy other than beating mobs with a spiked club with a chipped topaz in it…), but if you build that way you can tell how much more efficient it is.
         
        When you mix in some escape abilities in there, and maybe a buff, you’re going to have a rotation of at least 3-4 offensive abilities and some situational stuff. Compare that to d2… you spam hammers, tele, spam more hammers, refresh holy shield when its down. If you had fun doing that d3 will be 50x more complex and enjoyable. Have faith.

  8. Grandma finds the beta deep and engaging.

  9. What are “resources” and “the spam gates” Bashiok mentioned at the comment? I don’t get it.

    • “Obviously resources are the other big limiter, but we like our resource systems to be able to be gamed a little, and if they can be gamed you’re essentially opening the spam gates. That’s fine for some abilities, but not for others.”

      Spurred by your question, I just read those blue sentences again, and man that is oddly-worded. He’s explaining why they have cooldowns on some skills and not on others, and basically saying that they need resources to limit player power somewhat, but that they want to keep it fun and allow fast action. But not too unlimited (opening the spam gates) since that would be less fun.

  10. My favorite character was melee assassin and it required quite a bit of strategy, especially in hell. Choosing the right buff (BoS or Fade) at the right time, using the teleporting kick to run around, keeping up shadow masters and cloak of shadows as well as timing mindblast, timing your tiger strike releases on the right enemies or for the most AoE with the fire kick or even using blade fury with crushing blow.
     
    Nothing, in all the skills and runes, comes even close to so much versatility in Diablo 3. Man, now I feel like playing an assassin again.
     

    • Actually thinking more about it you don’t even have the option to make such a build in Diablo 3, even if the skills were as interesting, because you can only have 6 of them.
       
      Let’s not forget you pretty much needed cobra strike as well and claw mastery + claw block (if dual wielding) + venom in addition to the mentioned ones. Maybe even blade shield (I know it sucked but I liked using it for shits and giggles) and death sentry for group control CE.
       
      That’s in addition to not choosing your attributes/less versatile items (just my opinion but items look a lot more bland in D3)/not leveling up skills to specialize in one thing.
       
      Honestly I just hope the story in D3 is really good but since I read spoilers I’m not holding my breath on that either.
       
      I did enjoy the beta somewhat. It’s just not an experience I will remember fondly for years to come like Diablo 2.

      • I loved the assassin, she was awesome. But she was an exception in D2 for having somewhat complex mechanics and not just spamathon gameplay. On average, D3 looks to befa more involved than D2.

  11. It does, doesn’t it.

    Flux, you made an example of Fallen Shaman which are really an exception – they are usually in huge crowds of Fallen and they can Res the Fallen, while the boss can res the Shamans. Every other mob in game is a tank and spank.

    And let’s not pretend that even the tough mobs in D2 required much strategy. If coming at a corner of LOS to peel 1 or 2 minions away from the rest of the pack is strategy, gosh, WoW raid bosses from 7 years ago (and those are mostly awful btw) have a lot to talk to you about.

    That’s not to say that I disagree with you about the idea that D3 combat can’t really be all that deep. It probably isn’t. After a certain point in gear, I’m sure we will be facerolling through all the Inferno boss packs, who knows. But we can’t be sure until we play the damn thing to the end.

  12. “Erm – doesn’t that negate pretty much all of what you said above?”

    If you trust in every promise Bliz PR makes about how the game will be at lvl 60, yes. 

    I hope Bashiok’s correct, but he and all the devs have been beating this “just wait until you see the real game!” drum for like… 3 years. At a faster rate than ever since last Sept and the “beta is too easy!” feedback began.  I just hope there’s some real payoff after all this cock teasing.

    • Well, personally, I’ve never been disappointed by Blizzard. Some of the decisions they’ve made in WoW “for the good of all” turned out to be a bit bad (e.g. hard heroics and raids in early cata), but even those are pretty subjective. So I personally have no fear in this regard – I fully trust they will deliver as they’ve delivered with Wc2, Wc3, D1, D2, Wc3X, D2x, WoW, SC and SC2. 

      Of course, you can’t please everybody. There will be people who will think that combat is too easy and too hard, and about the equal number of them will be whining on the forums at the exact same time. 

    • I’m sorry but I have to agree with the OP. It’s ALL about Hell/Inferno. The champions are where the game is built around. And those are going to be engaging for sure. Deep? I don’t really know what that means. But I have faith. BELIEVE FLUX!

      • It’s too late for Flux. His hope died long ago. Poor bastard.

        Best we can do is carry on. It’s what he would have wanted. 🙂

         

    • I wouldn’t a big “load off” after all that teasing either 😉

    • “If you trust in every promise bliz PR makes about how the game will be at lvl 60, yes”

      They are the only ones that have the facts isn’t it? I have absolutely no evidence to claim their facts are wrong. They want the act1 normal to serve as a tutorial and they want normal to pull new players into the game so they may once become part of the die hard players that play inferno. Sounds like a fantastic plan, I don’t see why people are so skeptical against it 🙂 

  13. I wish I had the beta when the arcane/molten/lightning mobs were around. Those looked like a ton of fun in the videos.

  14. I don’t want to sound like a jerk, but I don’t really remember ever, at any time, on normal mode thinking how I would take out the first fallen shaman pack ( I can, however, say the same for the Diablo 3 demo as well). It was click click dead, or click click 1 1 click click dead. I do think D3’s combat has the potential to be engaging as long as we’re required to use defensive cooldowns on a regular basis, as well as time the use of health potions, and globes appropriately.

  15. So deep and engaging you can play it with just the mouse!

  16. Well, there is still a lot to improve. I dont even think this dumb down stuff is even true. The skills choice interface is really bad, the monsters, well. The only char i died yet, was the monk in early stage. 
    Too easy is just becuase some awesome skills at the beginning.

    I remember when me and a buddy first walked in hell act 1 and got our ass kicked ^^ 

    • Monster AI is eerily similar to that in D2. There’s almost no difference besides what you’d call an aggro radius, which is far, far reduced in D3. Monsters don’t really chase you and they aren’t horribly aggressive, either.
      There’s different levels of aggression, but monster behavior is one of two types: stay and fight, run and be obnoxious. That’s pretty much it. 

      • I remember a blizzcon panel video where they showed a D2 normal char running around blood moor and the monsters would just stand idle. I think a lot of people forget how ridiculously easy the start of d2 was. Having monster AI drastically reduced at the start of the game is nothing new to the diablo series.
        Tried to find a link to the vid but couldnt 🙁

        • No, I know what you’re talking about.
          But D3 is D2s AI toned down in terms of speed and response time. In patch 13, you could walk up to a quill rat and just wait. Sometimes they’d take up to five seconds to even recognize that you’re there and it isn’t lag.
          Skeletons will attack a jar of ash before they take a swing at you. Only unburied, grotesques, and the eels that come from grotesques will come right at you. The eels are surprisingly aggressive. 

        • In D2, all monsters swing at you the moment you’re in range, even the dumb slow Blood Moor zombies. In D3, they take forever before they decide you’re worth swatting at. It’s a HUGE difference.

  17. Flux, while you are the quintessential D elitist, to say this game is not strategic, relative to its counterparts, is looking at it with nostalgia blinders IMO.  D3, as it stands so far, is so much more strategically engaging than D2 ever was.  How engaging is it to click 1 skill for 100+ hours of gameplay?  “Yes, I finally maxed out Blizz, now for every situation EVER, I will stand from afar and cast blizz!  Strategic master I am!”  In D3, you often have to kite monsters, defensive AOE’s are incredibly useful when surrounded, and the variety of strategies to draw from will, in the end, trump D2.  Sure the monsters are easy to kill right now, but imagine when you ARENT IN THE OPENING 30 MINUTES OF THE GAME!!  Honestly, in this game you are constantly surrounded by fast-moving hordes.  Frozen enemies can be quite scary (mostly for a melee char), but imagine when all of these monsters are doing real damage?  This game is going to offer a much greater challenge than the previous D’s ever did.  I love this site, but the inferences it seems to derive from the Beta are often completely asinine.  

    • I don’t personally like this line of reasoning because its trying to compare two systems as though they were equal.  In D2, skill choices were limited by skill points.  Imagine if D2 was redone in the spirit of D3 and all skills were available to you, would you not play that sorc very differently? If the converse were true, you’d equally spam only a few skills in D3.
      This not only betrays the vapid “innovation” that has been brought to the series.  Nothing inherently has changed.  Someone could mod D2 right now, so that all skills were maxed out and you could pick and choose skills as you wanted.  Rebalance the difficulty a bit and voila, you have D3 that have the dimwits are salivating over.

  18. Funny how people trying to find “deep” combat in the first 40mins of the game lol

  19. I do wish Blizzard would stop insulting Diablo 2 every time they want to try and make Diablo 3 look better.
     
    Yeah, I know D2 was made by a different team, but it’s still your company’s name on the box so why are you trashing it all the time? That doesn’t seem like good public relations.
     
    As a side note, the first Shaman Boss Pack you encountered in D2 was usually Bishibosh, and he did require some planning in the early days. Remember that before boss Shamans got nerfed, they spawned with a pack of Shaman Minions instead of Fallen Minions, and Shaman Bosses could revive their Shaman Minions (who could then revive all the Fallen). This required a bit more strategy since you didn’t yet have the skills to tackle an unending army of Fallen, and to make matters worse Bishibosh would explode for heavy damage when he died if you were in melee range (this was also before Fire Enchanted was nerfed, remember).

  20. If Blizzard are proud of what they’ve managed to achieve with later difficulties and think showing it will get more people to buy the game then why don’t they show it? They could show the same part of the game that’s in the beta right now or some random area without bosses if they wanted to avoid spoilers.

    We haven’t seen any Diablo 3 gameplay yet as far as I’m concerned. All we’ve seen so far is the first part of the tutorial, not very promising if the game is going to be released soon.

    • There’s some high level skill videos on gamevideos.com. I didnt watch much of them because of potential spoilers in them, but enough to see that they did show off some gameplay anyways.

  21.  first Fallen Shaman boss pack you encounter in D2 requires considerably more strategy and tactics than any monster or situation that’s ever been presented in a Diablo III demo

    Funny. I played D2 just 2 weeks ago to refresh myself. The first enemy that required any thinking at all was Andariel (activate Antidote +spam attackspell + dodge spells).  First Shaman boss pack ? Seriously ? You 1-2 hit them and they fail to retaliate before they die. Maybe they do IF they manage to hit they do like 3% of your hp lol. What did you do play naked with 0 stats and 0 skills blindfolded with just your thumbs ? Oo
    You just move up to them and slap their shit. Just like you kill those Skell summoners before the other ones in the Beta.

    Interesting that you say Diablo demo. I’m pretty damn sure that some demos they showed us were more than run towards shaman 2 hit him so he cant resurrect fallens ,don’t get hit in the process because enemies are extremely slow, dumb and only have 15% chance to hit.

    but early on you actually had to get out of the way before Molten and Frozen bosses blew up, and when you got the first version of Arcane Enchanted, you ran or you died.

    Sounds more complex than 3 Hit Bash Raikanishu and ignore enemies since the don’t do any significant damage.  How about you try D2 again. Your memory seems way off. 

  22. These devs are like the republicans, telling a near flat out lie while shoving money in their back pocket out of your sight.

  23. I didn’t ever play D1 or 2. My friend got me hyped on this game, sending me mails etc with progress updates, and I gotta say the first time I ever saw game play I did respond along the lines of “looks a bit spammy” (I believe it was a vid of a monk killing skeletons – he’d use the same attack over and over on everything that got near, all the time shouting the same war cry).

    I agree with flux that the appeal of this game is the overall package. Looking at the previous front page post, Tristram through the years, the music is great, really atmospheric to say the least, and I also like the visuals of D3 a lot. I hope the music is on a par with what we saw in that Tristram 1,2,3 vid, super awesome like.

  24. Yeah, because the portion of act 1 normal up to Blood Raven can easily be called some of the deepest and most engaging gameplay in all of existence.

    Thank you for further reinforcing why the white text of incgamers articles are worth skipping. 

  25. Try a naked run with a monk or barbarian, i think that gives you a better sense of what you might be dealing with.

  26. Wait, didn’t you (Flux) write a long and crazy detailed PvP report talking about the depth of the combat at Blizzcon 2010? Didn’t we dissect the 2011 PvP demo to pieces with multiple guests? Sure, that’s PvP, but you can use similar skills and tactics in PvE (in fact, if Inferno is balanced right, you’ll have to). D2 was so “deep” a script could beat it. Beat the final boss of the game. I agree w/ others that they should throw out some more videos of Nightmare/Hell/Inferno, set in the same space as the Beta (for story spoiler avoidance). Show a little tutorial of high level play for each class, explaining which skills and runes work well w/ others, as well as alternative strategies. Instead, we get brain dead bloggers who claim the entire game is a cake walk you can two-click to win, w/o actually knowing what they’re talking about. And those that do know what they’re talking about, b/c they played the high level PvP demos, some of them get almost as much amnesia as cast members on All My Circuits.

    • I should have specified “PvE demo” but I think you know what I meant. Furthermore, your post just strengthens my point.  There’s wildly fun strategy and deep/engaging/etc in PvP, since you’re not taking on no-AI walking sacks of exp. The game itself has great potential for fun stuff; it’s just not yet evident in any of the demos or the beta since the monster AI is so dumb and the difficulty is so limited. 

      Will that change later in the game or on hell/inferno? I sure hope so…

  27. “I have no hesitation in saying that the first Fallen Shaman boss pack you encounter in D2 requires considerably more strategy and tactics than any monster or situation that’s ever been presented in a Diablo III demo”
     
    I don’t know about you Flux, but I usually just ran to those shamans, clicked on them and then they died, which is pretty much the same thing I do to skeletal summoners in the beta as well.

    I can’t really see anything different so far about how D3 handles the difficulty curve compared to how D2 did it.

    • Maybe He’s talking about the later difficulties i.e Hell difficulty.

    • Try it untwinked with a low level char in D2C. There are 6 or 7 shamans, all resing the imps with the boss resing the other shamans, and maybe 20 imps chasing you around. And they actually do damage when they hit you in D2, and you can’t take on multiple monsters at once, and you don’t have skills like Arcane Orb at lvl 2, and you don’t have resources that refill almost as fast as you can cast spells.

      You have to lead the imps away, hit and run on the shamans, hunt for the Bishibosh, while he wanders around, etc. The fact that you can run in D2 makes a huge diff, after playing the “one slow jogging speed fits all” D3 for a while, as it opens up a lot of tactics involving movement. While also making things a lot easier in some ways, due to the escapability. The resolution is a big factor also; when you can only see 640×480 (in D2C) you’re very close to enemies by the time you can see them; D3 you can always see everything so far away, it gives you a big advantage in planning.

      • I usually played untwinked, so that can’t be why our experiences differ.

        However I didn’t play D2C in ages. Did the expansion change the difficulty of Normal Act 1? I remember that hirelings were useless in classic, but you can encounter unique shamans before you get the rogue, so I don’t really think that hirelings matter in this case.
         
        You can indeed get overwhelmed by the fallen imps, but in that case I usually just kill one and while the others are running away I get back to pounding away on the shamans, for which I usually used a bought two-handed weapon with casters, because of the low mana pools.
         
        Then there’s the whole potion chugging thing, which is kinda equatable to the large amounts of health orbs that Elites drop in D3.

        I forgot about the resolution. Playing in 640×480 was a nightmare, even when the game was new.

  28. Well honestly, I have to agree since I have seen on youtube videos, It’s all skills skills skills…..

    You want deep and engaging combat (not to mention pant crapping): Go learn something from Diablo 1’s 1st quest…..THE BUTCHER. That is what Diablo 3 should be like 30 minutes into the game or I’m canceling my preorder…:-P

  29. I played the 2009 Blizzcon demo (back when you could use MI for its damage), and Act 2 was “challenging” especially when running into a few champions with vampiric mods. As long as later in the game plays like I remember those wide open desert spaces I won’t be disappointed.

    • True. Bosses were quite unbalanced in the early demos. And still to some extent early in the beta, with the difficulty spikes near D2 levels of potential one hit kills. That’s all been removed from the current beta version, and I’d imagine it’s turned down quite a bit in the rest of normal diff as well, by now.

      Not necessarily a bad thing; that was a cheesy system in D2 with such easy monsters 99% of the time, 90% of bosses still pretty easy, and then the 10% potentially almost impossible, if they got certain mod combinations.

      MSLEs pre-v1.10 weren’t “deep and engaging” they were cheesy insta-kills.

  30. I guess I just suck cause when I go into level 2 of the pits with my sorc and there are a couple packs of dark archers cursed with conviction and amplify damage, I kinda take it easy and strategize a little bit. I remember playing D2 when it first came out and it was alot harder then than it is now. Ol’ Bremm Sparkfist was usually death and Duriel used to give me nightmares!
    I have a feeling Hell and Inferno will be pretty tough. I don’t mind the lower difficulty levels not being that hard, it’s not as big of a deal as some of the elitists make it out to be.

  31. The game will be fun! calm down people! …the Beta is so fun and addicting i’ve beaten it several, several times and its 1/12 of the game!

  32. I’m not sure if there are a lot of engaging combats in the beginning of D2 either. 
    First of all you have about 1-2 skills to work with when you’re lv 6 (and probably all at lv 1 since you don’t want to mess up your build) and then you constantly hear “I need mana..” from your character.

    There was a few tactics yes, but it was mainly.. range, and kite. And the potions. 

    I do think the HP is too high for the characters. So as long as Blizzard would reduce the HP and/or increase dmg for the mobs, then it should be fine.. and of course it’d help if they add more mod for elite mob (like cursed, aka Griswold). 

  33. Ahahahaha judging the combat from the first part of act 1 on normal. Pathetic. 
     

  34. This post feels like it’s purpose is to bash on D3, just for the sake of bashing…
    After finishing D3 beta with all 5 characters, I went and installed D2 again, and tried playing with some of my old characters. And guess what…
    Barb – battle shout, battle orders, ww, ww, ww, ww, ww, ww….bs, bo, ww, ww, ww, ww
    Druid – fury, fury, fury, fury, fury…..
    Assassin – lightning sentry, death sentry, run run run, LS, DS, run run run
     
    It’s not THAT engaging, sorry. The biggest surprise for me was realisation how much D2 lacks in color…everything is just so bland, almost every skill has basic visual effects.
    Claiming that D3 is not engaging after playing 50 min of beta material is ridiculous. I can say I had more fun leveling barb to lvl 13 in D3 than I did in D2. And that applies to most of the other characters as well.

    • yadda yadda. All d3 talk eventually turns into d2 bashing, which in this case is funny because there’s no difference between the two.

      Instead of BO, WW, etc, it’s now cleave, cleave, cleave, cleave, maybe do a leap attack if you want to get up some stairs right quick.

      There’s nothing deep or tactical in either game. Health globes shake this up a bit but it remains to be seen, particularly with the gluttonous amounts of life leech in D3.
      Engaging? Sure, D2 and D3 are engaging, but it has little to do with combat and more to do with endorphin-fueled slot machine pulling. 

      “We aren’t making D3 like D2! But let’s compare them anyway, and totally bash D2 in the process with a complete lack of logic!”

      -Any blue post. 

      • You got it backwards. Every D3 discussion ends with a conclusion that D2 was so much better and that D3 is horrible, based on part of Act I Normal.
        I had fun playing barb, using Frenzy and hammer, while shouting and stomping to stun enemies.

  35. A) The Diablo Universe is not meant to be deep and engaging. D1, D2, or D3.  It is an item slot machine where you click to pull the lever.
     
    2) Flux, will all due respect, unless Blizzard secretly shook hands with you and let you play harder difficulties or battle any of the non tank-n-spank bosses (ala Siegebreaker or other mobs with some serious hit points or resistances), I don’t think you or anyone else have the curriculum vitae to comment on this issue. that said, I still consider this point to be a non-issue because Diablo is about as deep as a kiddie pool.
     
    $) Bashiok sticks is foot in his mouth yet again.

  36. I don’t like this. The depth of diablo games is in the character design and all the strategies and calculations that go into building a character. The combat is supposed to be simple. In D2 I loved going out and spamming an area of effect skill and watching everything on my screen die. I think it’s good to have some depth to combat but Blizzard seems to have it backwards. They are clearly less concerned with depth of character builds and more concerned with depth of combat. This not a good strategy for a diablo game design. 

    D2 never became one of the most successful ARPG’s ever because of the combat. I don’t know why Blizzard is so intent on deviating from a successful formula.

    • There were no calculations in Diablo 2 in order to make a best build. It was all trial and error, finding out what skills sucked and which didn’t, even considering that it’s not hard to figure out that Cold Mastery and FrozenOrb compliment each other. Also, figuring out how much STR/DEX you needed for gear isn’t math.
       

  37. YA OMG DEY INSULTED DIABLO 2!! ACTIVISION RUINED YOU BLIZZARD!! /sarcasm 

  38. I made a thread on the forums about this too. I know exactly what you mean..I have been playing diablo 2 and lvl 1-12 was easy. but even at lvls 7-8 and above have had more tactical scenarios thrown at me than the whole 1-12 in the beta. I want what you want as well.
    We cant judge it right now but…how hard is it to introduce a new game to a person? The only thing hard about it is figuring out the right build and skill affixes.. which most likely we wont even worry about until later at the end of normal to beginning of nightmare, at least that’s what im getting out of this design.
    I want a little challenge at least on normal. This game shouldn’t be hard to figure out for new players. The way things are going right now though, from the looks of it, Im going to burn through normal and explore the game on nightmare. And that notion is kind of annoying.

    • I agree with you, but I don’t think that’s even really a critique. D3 is exactly how they want it to be early on; very easy, very hard to die, very simple, etc. They didn’t try to make it strategic and challenging and fail; they tried to make it fun and playable despite being basically a tutorial. At that i think they’re succeeding, even as I kind of wish they weren’t doing it that way.

  39. Comparing the first parts of the two games, Diablo 3’s combat is at least more interesting/better designed. You get more skills to use and you aren’t relying on basic attack for 10 levels. There’s also a lot more interesting skills other than pure damage spam skills, such as Caltrops, Grasp of the Dead, Frost Nova, Ground Stomp, while the beta is super easy, these skills establish some sort of situational consideration and encourage a non-spammy mindset to get the most out of them. My favorite being Caltrops in the way it makes you consider where you are in relation to the monsters and the ideal place to put it.

  40. just realized – the devs comparing the upcoming product to the previous one to promote the upcoming product is a BAD sign.

    They should not need to put down D2 to explain why D3 is good. Not at all.

     

  41. Tried Classic  1.00  just now since D2 Lod 1.13 was extremely easy.

    Barb obviously selffound no guide etc.

    Fallen sometimes need TWENTY attacks to hit me once. They do about 1 damage I have 108 hp. I put points in str and vita.
    Average enemy chance to hit me :  17%  57 armor.  [With Shout lvl 1 (+100% def)  9%]
    I could buy a new breast armor wich would add another 11 armor more but I think I’m gonna save it for now . Wasted 2 skill points in weapon masteries I don’t use just because I can.

    Shamans can’t revive other Shamans except Bishibo. Their fireballs do 2 damage with an fire resist item I found 10% and 3 without it.  I needed 4 hits with Bash to kill him with the first white weapon you have and Bash lvl 1. Tried again with a sabre I found and just needed 2.   There were about 10-15 fallens with him and 3-4 shamans spread out around him. The fire explosion after his death deals 1-10 damage sometimes it deals none weird. Leaving me with just dangerous 98.

    With running you are so extremely fast that you can pretty much just run to him and kill him before any enemy can even attack once. I can’t see myself getting hit ever as a ranged char unless I’m out of stamina or really stupid.

    There is a difference in balance as I actually had to use a potion at some point in the caves unlike 1.13 Act 1.

    Can you show me that patch were D2 Act 1 Normal starting area is anything but piss easy and extremely flat ?  Neither 1.13 LoD nor 1.00classic is the right one.

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