Diablo 3 Needs Higher Torment Difficulty Levels?


Not this kind of Torment...

Not this kind of Torment…

I’ve spent my play time over the past month+ on the PTR, playing softcore characters (Season Two testing), most of which very quickly got into super gear thanks to the +2000% drop rate community buff. With my Monk and DH comfortably about to handle GR40+, I’ve become very aware of an issue I didn’t really notice playing my hardcore characters on live… WTF is with DiabloWikiTorment 6 as the highest difficulty level?

My best hardcore chars on live can do DiabloWikiGreater Rift 30+, and the limiting factor there is not fear of death, but killing speed. Those hardcore chars are geared with a ton of toughness and thus don’t have the killing power to lawnmower over the enemies rapidly enough to exceed GR32 or so. Playing softcore characters on the PTR is a very different story, and especially playing my DH, Torment6 just seems ridiculous.

Each DiabloWikiTorment level the monster hit points and damage scale up about the equivalent of 3 GR levels, so T4 = GR19, T5 = GR22, and T6 = GR25. Continuing that progression, T7 would be around GR 28, T8 = GR31, T9 = GR34, T10 = GR37, T11 = GR40, T12 = GR43, T13 = GR46, T14 = GR47, etc.

If you’re not geared that well (yet) imagine thusly: consider that a character who can clear GR40 is basically doing Torment 11, which is roughly as easy as a GR25 character doing T1. Or a Torment 1 character playing on Normal difficulty level. It’s not exactly the same since monsters deal much higher damage on the higher levels; my PTR DH can one-shot trash mobs and kills most elites in under 5s with a couple of Sentries adding their MS to hers, but she’s not immortal (as a T6 char would feel playing on T1) and can die in a couple of seconds of Arcane Beams or by standing in a Molten pack.

That said, T6 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy. Absurdly so. The whole game, outside of GR40 runs, feels pretty much like normal split farming in the old days, where I mostly just worry about movement speed, since everything dies as fast as I can shoot it. If I even bother to slow down long enough to do so. It’s not super-rewarding, but that’s sort of the point, since I think it’s weird that the highest difficulty level in the game (other than Grifts) is basically a run-through for any char with top end gear.

Do you guys agree? Do you think higher levels of Torment are needed? Desired? Personally, I want them. I can find challenge in GRifts, but those feel sort of pointless to me once I’ve got my LGems upgraded, and I enjoy doing normal Rifts and even Bounties, where gold drops, Treasure Goblins exist and chests exist, etc, and the whole game isn’t just a 15m rush against the clock. I think there’s fun to be had in grinding content above your character’s power level, where you have to struggle to survive and endure long battles against tough opponents, and once you’ve got good gear that’s not possible in Reaper of Souls. Either you god mode your way through T6, or you play Grifts that aren’t hard enough to be challenging, since a high toughness grinding type character can’t get keys high enough to get into a Grift that’s challenging.

Diablo 3 Needs Higher Torment Difficulty Levels?

Does Diablo 3 Need Higher Torment Difficulty Levels?

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BTW, this isn’t an article to brainstorm the Torment changes, but when/if the devs add more Torment levels I think they should scale up more dramatically. Instead of just 3 GRs per Torment, they should jump 5 or 6 or 8. You don’t need such precision per increase, and players are so far above T6 now that the numbers would get silly-high. Projecting with the current progression, the hypothetical T12 would be lower than the Grifts some players are currently clearing solo, and I think there should be a non-GR difficulty level that’s higher than anyone can fly through in 15 minutes. Ideally the devs would call T7+ by some other name, to make clear the difficulty jump was increasing. Mega-Torment! Or something…

Tagged As: | Categories: Diabloii.Net Votes, End Game, Greater Rifts, Torment

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  1. Diablo 3 needs rebalancing, needs harder champ packs, needs separation of skill dmg and weapon dmg, needs more affixes, needs maps variety, needs skills progression.

    what is the need of T1 to T6? make one Torment a truly hard Torment.

    Characters are so flat and similar, the only differences between Barbs & Crusaders are the shield bonus, both have a jump skill, both have summon skill, both have a cleave type skill, both have a charge skill. DH has pets, WD has pets, Crusader has aura's Monks too.

    In D2 every char is realy unique its so simple.

    • “what is the need of T1 to T6? make one Torment a truly hard Torment.”

      lol that’s what inferno was.

      • never thought i would but im missing the Infermo days to be honest, Inferno with the today loot system would have been better from all this torment thing.

      • Exactly. And back then, people complained about how hard it was to build a character strong enough to survive it (without AH, at least). Blizzard just gave us what we asked for, and now we complain again because we don't like it either.

        • No, Blizzard most certainly DID NOT "give us what we asked for." There were dozens & dozens of threads the first year on the D3 Forums with all sorts of ideas and suggestions for fixing D3. Blizz largely ignored the finer points in favor of pulling the AH (and replacing it with nothing) & gave us THEIR version of what we asked for… Read: a watered down, bug ridden, kindergarden version of what was asked for.

          • Blizzard may have made many mistakes when implementing features, but that doesn't mean they weren't asked for…

            You mention the Auction House, and how Blizzard ignored suggestions to improve it… Most people (or, at least, the most vocal fanbase) were more than happy when it was completely scrapped:

            http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/diablo-3-auction-house-closing

            In the poll here about the auction house closing, there was an overwhelming victory of the "Strongly agree. Good riddance to the AH." option, and lots of the comments are in that style. That was BEFORE we saw Blizzard's alternative. So yes, the hatred towards the AH was that high. Blizzard could have tried to repair it (that's what I personally would have liked), but people just wouldn't have stopped complaining until it was removed.

  2. I would like more "torments", with better rewards. Imo, rewards on T6 solo rifts are kinda terrible. Higher torment with solo rewards closer to T6 groups are the way to go.

    I tested with my DH and, imo, T6 on PTR is so boring…

  3. no. i do not want more torment levels.

    I'd much prefer them add something else. A difficulty that scales to the groups damage/toughness levels. That would do the trick.

  4. One issue I see with the idea of higher torment levels is a further separation of the player base…

    The approach right now is to tie many of the game mechanics with difficulty level, like drop rates. If you’re looking to craft a hellfire ring/amulet or farming bounty caches for a RoRG, the drop chance is tied to torment level and scales up to 100% at T6.

    With T10, would those drop rates be re-scaled? Certainly seems like the style of how all of the current development has gone, but that would inevitably make those items more difficult to obtain and further separate the well geared from those working on it.

    Otherwise, what other reward could be implemented for increased difficulty… maybe increased chance of legendary items to be ancient? Sounds like the same ultimate effect. If there was no change other than pure difficulty, something tells me there would just be further disdain and outrage.

  5. yeah i do want more torment levels, i play mostly that and rifts and its way too easy.. and greater rifts would be fun but the getting the damn keys and finding a group in public is just a pain and hardly worth the time…

  6. Not sure what the gain from another set of additional torment levels is supposed to be when ten (10!) different existing difficulties are already considered insufficient. A 'system' which just starts serially numbering its components half way through could easily be viewed as enough of a heaped mess as it is.

    While I'd agree that Torment VI gets standard –relatively– quickly, that's just how it is, there simply isn't more to this game. Steamrolling the game at the highest difficulty? Well, good for you, well done, you've finished D3 unless you want to re-run it another 20 hijillion times with a different character class or, even more mindless: try the totally random endless-mode.

    Much to its own distadvantage, D3 has been a game which purely relied on numerical tuning of its reward system, its randomization and its difficulty scaling all along. Early on, during pre-release, they got me pretty excited about an ambiguous statement which made it seem like D3's enemy AI would become more potent and unlock new monster abilities over the course of increasing difficulty modes, which sadly turned out to be nothing more than "elites gain 1 affix per level". Simply adding Torment VII to MLXXVIII… and beyond through interpolation of existing health and damage values would just represent another loveless makeshift approach (hello, ancient legendary items!). So no, thanks to that.

    If more elaborate and playful mechanics aren't in the cards in order to make difficulty an interesting aspect of the game, I personally consider the old Magic Find system – where you sacrifice as much of your gear/character power for the sake of a greed-driven tertiary stat as your current idividual character/skill setup/playstyle allows you while still being barely able to survive – a far more elegant and vastly superior concept to whatever meaningless granularity of numerically scaled challenge D3 came up with so far.

  7. This is going to sound crazy, but I blame the lack of trading and loot 2.0 for making the game this easy.

    Premise: with the strongest gear in the game you're geared to fight the strongest monsters in the game.

    There are only 4 gear tiers in D3: random yellow junk, mismatched legs, crafted sets, and your cookie cutter BiS gear. For most classes the 4th tier is a six piece set but for Crusaders it is a specific combination of legs. Whatever.

    Most item slots in D3 are fixed. You rings will be SOJ, Unity, or RRoG. Your amulet is CHD, socket, and +2 primaries. Your belt might not be a Witching Hour but you surely wish it was. The rest of your slots have one choice, really.

    With the cranked up leg rate and the high gambling odds assembling your 6 piece set has never been easier. And when you get there you're T6 by definition. There is no "T3 gear" or "Master gear" since the build-enabling powers on your legs are so enabling. (Powerful.) And with loot 2.0 I've never spent less time gearing up with BiS. It's easier now than it ever was.

    For difficulty to return they'd have to rebalance the game to make my premise false. The original D3 had level 63 monsters while we were capped at 60. And that was hard! I liked that but the majority didn't.

  8. I wouldn't mind either way if they added more torments or didn't. I doubt they will, due to the reason Travis (?) gave in one of your (I think) interviews, Flux. IIRC he said something about how they like the 'relaxed' atmosphere farming T6 gives (when you're fully geared) compared to pushing higher level GRifts. And personally I don't mind that either. Blitzing through T6 rifts has its own kind of charm, and allows for a greater variety of builds – remember, if there was a T11 then we'd be forced even more than we are now into those cookie-cutter builds. At least now I can kind of use a non-standard build and still farm the highest content.

    as an aside, I think this is another reason they won't add more Torments – it gives the appearance that there's more balance than there actually is.

  9. I made a post on the battle.net forums proposing an idea about a different type of Torment system, if anyone’s interested in checking it out.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15699460744

  10. How about Diablo IV instead ?

  11. I would like higher torments, but that wont force me to use WD’s pet builds, or Jade harvester build. I like my bears and im sticking with them. Id rather stop playing the game until updates, like im doing now, than playing with the most powerful builds that i hate. And there are hardly any wd items helping in that respect. 🙁

  12. You will always be limited by toughness as well in high GR. When you fail a GR because damage is too low, you shift toughness to damage and voila, it will become dangerous 😉

    PS T7-T10 would be nice.

  13. I don’t mind to have more Torment levels but as long as I at Plvl 278 still not be ablo to do T6 because of the RNG I am happy as it is now.

  14. I fail to see the point of "higher torment levels" when the game already has failed game design in the form of unavoidable damage, (still) buggy integrated damage system and a bunch of pointless skills and legendaries.

    greater rift level 50 is your "higher torment level". go play that k?

  15. I still do not understand how everyone keeps boasting about doing T6 on HC without issue.
    I spend alot of time on this game and have a DH with BiS on all items (as far I know: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/diablo-1587/SHCDH/50293183) and still I cannot progress beyond T4 (or Grif 24) without my anti-death passive triggering at least once.
    I think that the most dedicated players (players like us here on a forum dedicated to this one game) might have a little bit of a skewed view on what constitutes fun and balanced gameplay for \normal\/casual players.

    • Demon Hunters are not meant to face tank mobs, but you can get by in Torment 6 group play with a build that relies on constant movement (Rocket M6 turret build for example).

      As soon as you stand still for too long in torment 6 and greater rift 26+ you’re toast against champ packs with instant damage skills. This is because you have been forced to sacrifice hit points for damage per second.

      I personally face roll Torment 6 on my Demon Hunter, can solo up to about GR36 with double unity M6 turret build. Would like to see higher torment difficulty, up to say 10 at least, with higher leg drop rate and xp/gold rewards.

  16. This entire article and vote post feels like nothing but a huge brag fest. With all due respect, it reads like it was written by someone with a complete lack of insight into the majority of D3 players and fans.

    Being at the top of a fansite has enabled much different play than the normal D3 player, and has led to a severe disconnect, much like the employees at Blizzard face. That is, a fansite leader or a Blizzard employee has zero idea what it’s like to grind for hours. They don’t know what it’s like to be limited to either on solo or as a pug in random public games. This is because they have dedicated groups of people who will back them up, swarms of clan members in such great number they have to be split into different groups. Bad RNG is harder to overcome when you can’t just fire up games with a ton of buddies salivating at the chance to glom onto one’s glory.

    It’s fantastic the writer of this article is having such an easy time playing D3. But D3 is waaaaaaaay too easy the way a hot girl thinks getting free drinks at the bar is waaaaaaay too easy.

    • I'm pure solo and I think the same thing. It actually required a lot of time before he did, before that he was a hyper casual sub T6.

    • The whole point of the article was that I didn't think T6 was too easy playing normally, but on the PTR the past month with softcore chars, especially with gear from the huge community buff, I see now how it is for players who do softcore all the time, and I see their point about T6 being much too easy. Absurdly too easy.

      Most people don't have that problem, I certainly don't playing on live, but as the game's drop rates seem to grow ever more generous, there are new better legendaries every patch, and GRs are much easier to clear in the upcoming patch (which means faster LGem upgrades), more and more players are going to get into that "T6 is pointlessly easy" state.

      I think part of the devs' logic behind the current system is that with T6 very easy for any character with good gear (a decent weapon and any of the full 6 piece set bonuses is enough for someone to steamroll T6 in softcore), players feel powerful and think it's fun as they're able to handle the "highest" difficulty pretty smoothly. If the difficulty went up to T12, then no one would be powerful enough to steamroll the highest difficult, and players who are handling T6 pretty well now would go up to T7 or T8 and find it really challenging.

      As we see in actual player behavior (as opposed to most of us asking for D3 to be much more challenging pre-game) most players like playing on a level when they can smash and feel awesome. Rather than struggle to survive.

      And I'm fine with people playing on T6 or whatever they can handle and feel powerful. I just wish the game offered more challenge for players who are well-geared to the point that T6 now is a joke.

      • True flux but here we are again in the merry go round and that is trials.

        Why so many think T6 is to easy and the game needs more torments ? Maybe because they don't see Grifts as farmable ? And why do you think is that ?

        TRIALS

        Trials stop greater rifts from bein ga very easy to acces farmable system and there lies the problem.

        • The issue is unrelated to Grifts for me, except in that I don't find Grifts very fun, and hardly to them at all aside from LGem upgrading neds.

          I mostly want higher Torment so I could play a very high difficulty without having to race through it. Without being forced into certain builds and play styles that keep the killing speed up high, as the timer on Grifts requires.

          I think we'd see more build diversity with higher Torment, since then there would be some reason to gear up for survival and toughness over DPS.

      • It's still trivial on HC, provided you've met the One True Gearcheck, of course.

        And that's the thing. Rofflestomping is the only game there is right now, but if the harder content were more rewarding you still have your rofflestomp T6 runs and you have enemies that are remotely difficult and worth killing.

  17. højere than T6 I do not know about a really good idea, I'm para lvl 573-575 and might not it the world's best gearmed my DH but looks quite often other players and at the same lvl are nailed down at T6, before we had AH and had a chance to get better gear now plays in we days without good drops, there are many more drops now but usually bad and worthless, do not quite understand all of them saying how easy it is to cruise through T6, people become opinionated slaughtered . Before the AH there was a chance to acquire something super gear and you'll forget it's not all have time for farms 7-24, the exemplary mention that I still use Innas pants on my DH when I advanced until not found something or could crafting something that gives me more dmg, Vitaly or toughnes for that matter. if you want noisier T-lvls reintroduce AH or another form of trade forum. think it's getting really want higher lvls than T6 and it is probably the same who wanted AH abolished. I thought the old D2 was more balanced in gear and difficulty level terms

  18. Yeah, add 4 torment levels for a total of 10, and rebalanced them so level 10 is GR40 (for now).

    And while they're at it, they could make 1/2 1/4 and 1/10 legs have an increased chance to drop with each torment level, so that at Tl0 a Wand of Woh has an equal chance (1/1) to drop as any other wand. I've said they should "tighten" the affix range that rolls long before they did and resurrected that game. Now, improved odds with difficulty, is all that is missing for the loot game to remain rewarding in the very long run when you achieve maximum difficulty, it's better than farming and spending effing blood shards over and over.

    • The least common drops of all types (like wand of woh) are all boosted in drop odds on the ptr patch, which will be live in the new year. I haven't seen datamining of the new drop rates, but just anecdotally I've found several frostburns and TnT in the past week+, when I'd found about 1 of either in total during the previous month on the PTR. Found an Ice Climbers also, last week.

      • Let's hope it is noticeable. Right now I find it difficult to justify the hours it takes to improve my demon hunter or wizard any further, even with room for improvement hours with nothing to show for it is frustrating.

        • From the patch notes, it's only the few most-uncommon items which were boosted in drop chances, and there are only a couple of dozen such items in the game. Calamity and Kridershot are the only DH-specific items affected by the change.

          http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/diablo-3-legendary-drop-rates-revealed

          Presumably those are now 1/4 drop odds, instead of 1/10, making them equivalent to the other rare but not ultra-rare legendary items, but until the patch goes live and there's some final stage datamining, I'll refrain from counting unhatched chickens.

  19. I'd completely support it on the grounds that the Torment system has already been through the 6+ month worthless content phase and therefore higher levels would grant more loot and therefore worth playing on day 1, giving us hard enemies that are actually worth killing. Something that GRs could technically provide, but only if Blizzard got a clue so they never actually will in practice.

  20. Personally I think they should leave the difficult where it’s at (normal to t6), and instead, develop difficult agnostic systems (like Greater Rifts) that scale on their own. The ideaology behind that, is that playing in T6 feels a lot like playing in Hell mode from D2. It’s easy to ROFL through the content, and this makes many more builds viable (where viable means relatively efficient). Then, for those who want some challenges, develop other gaming modes that scale up in difficulty, that way you maintain the ROFL farming of old, while catering to those who enjoy a challenge. If they added a system that wasn’t purely based on time to progress (to break up the pure damage meta), they could also allow different builds to be more viable depending on what you are doing. Distributing the rewards, so that some thing are better for different things would also be nice. To me, that would be way more beneficial long term than adding torment levels.

  21. seems like your DH has sadly passed away ( http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/diablo-1587/hero/50293183 )

    by contrast, here is mine: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/nemhauser-2709/hero/47371339

    maybe i cannot face tank everything in t6 but i’m not that far from it (and i can do gr34 without procing my cheating death)

    not all rolls ideal, but you can clearly see the difference.

    you didn’t have taskers which would make quite a difference 🙁

  22. weird, my post above was a reply to Diablo_rdk but it did not stick under it properly

  23. Some people ask for more torment with higher drop rate so they get again better gears and grieve for again higher torment. If the finished the game, let them start again with another class or season. Don't you get bored of M6 for 1000+ hours?
    And this will lower what casual players can get of the game because end game content is made for these few. E.g. the level 25 gem affix is for people able to do T6. With T10, will they add another affix for level 40 that will make salivate 99.99% of the fan base while being unreachable unless using a not funny forced cookie cutter game play (I do not find M6 or pets funny. I understand and accept some like these but I do not want to be forced to play this)?

    I agree for T10 only without any T10 only gears (or GR40 only stuff). Else people will whine for T15 and no cookie cutter / multiclass / hardcore player will be able to benefit from end game challenge.

    I would prefer a GR system (with levels) but for normal rift, bounties and campaign. Like urshi would give you a game key level xx. Yet no bonus for gear find. This must be only for challenge.

  24. Hey guys,

    I was one who voted 'it's not the top of my wish list' because, though it should be added to the mountain of things I'd like to see in Diablo 3, it's not as much a priority as items, set fixes, build diversity, storage issues, adjustments to many systems and even another expansion. With the time it takes them to just get one patch straight … I'd rather see the time spent on other things. We have grifts that go way above t6

  25. I’d like to see higher torment given the ridiculous ease at which T6 is farmed. That being said, I think some of the comments reveal that a higher challenge can be accomplished in a multitude of different ways i.e. not only by increasing ‘torment level’.

    Eh it’s always been a grind. Sometimes I think this is what Seasons or Hardcore is for if you get too bored and need to spice things up a bit.

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