Diablo 3 Economy: Can Ironborn Afford Itself?


As the self-found / DiabloWikiIronborn style of play (and varieties thereof) grow in popularity, the issues of gold sinks and other in-game Diablo 3 Economy features come in for a closer look. Those systems in Diablo 3 are a sort of hybrid of design, meant to provide gold sinks and expenses for high level players enriched by trading in the Auction House, yet not meant to be totally unaffordable for casual players or the Ironborn. Is it working? Perhaps not:

Since I’m only on MP2 the demonic essence droprate isn’t exactly the best, but I am actually farming them faster than I can farm gold to even use them. Is there something I’m just missing to my gameplay or is this how it’s supposed to be? I understand that this game heavily relies on the AH, but there’s got to be SOME way to sustain my gold while still crafting for upgrades at a reasonable pace.
Grimiku: My characters in Hardcore are mostly self-found (but not completely), and I’ve also noticed that Demonic Essences are rarely the reason that my crafting slows to a crawl. Most of the time it’s because I don’t have enough Tomes of Secrets, or gold. In the instances where I’m short on gold I usually salvage less, vendor more, and try to sell some rares for cheap on the Auction House if they’re any good for new level 60 characters. Are you salvaging everything?

I was entirely and then mostly self found for the first months after release and I remember how tight gold was in those days. All the really useful crafting recipes came in v1.07, but even just affording gem upgrades and repairs was hard early on. DiabloWikiPatch 1.03 helped by greatly lowering gem upgrade costs for gems below Flawless Squares, but then v1.05 came along and inadvertently hiked gem costs by making square-quality no longer drop in Inferno. That added expense since Square gems cost almost nothing to upgrade while Flawless Squares cost 30k, and you found twice as many FS in v1.05 and later.

Like most AH-using players today I don’t notice the gold costs of gem upgrades, but I would if I were self found, and I especially would if I were hoping to make a Marquise gem someday from the sweat of my own labor. The 20m to make it and 5m to unsocket it prices leap out, but consider the full cost of making a single Marquise gem:

  • 66.2 million gold (Jeweler fees)
  • 4893 Tomes of Secret
  • 2187 Flawless Square Gems
  • 10 Demonic Essence
  • A typical game clearing all the farmable areas of Act One nets me 40-45 ToS. Say 48.93 just for easy calculations and you’re looking at 100 games (of maybe 40-60 minutes each) to store up enough to make a Marquise Gem. That’s not impossible… but how about finding the gems? Can you even find 2200 Flawless Square gems of the same type? Like, ever?

    So how about it, those of you playing self found, or just playing casually and thus not amassing the AH-riches to buy your mats and needs? Is the in-game economy functioning viably, or are the costs simultaneously too low for AH-users and too high for Ironborn? (And what’s your highest Paragon level? Once you’re way up there and rolling along with 400% Gold Find, the economy should feel very different.)

    Also, what’s the solution? If D3X brings forth ladders that have some provisions for people who want to do Ironborn and avoid the AH or trading all together, could Blizzard tweak the economy for them? Lower Artisan costs? Higher drop rates for mats and/or gold?

    Tagged As: | Categories: Blue Posts, Crafting, Economy, Ex-Blizzard, Ironborn

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    1. You forgot the part where you don’t actually need a Marquise Gem…

      Is it really a bad thing if some of the really, really good stuff in the game takes years to find? Why would it be a problem if 10 years from now there’s still things you’ve never found or seen? How many self-found Enigmas do you actually think ever existed?

      • Yep, tend to agree with yovargas. It is very feasible to find materials to make the gems 2 tiers below radiant without much effort as purely self found. You have to focus on just gems if that is your goal. That means vendoring all the rares instead of salvaging them.

        Will you have full marquise? Highly unlikely as self found… As self found hardcore, it was about 120 hrs to get to paragon 34 from scratch and I had the gems 2 below radiant in helm and in weapon. I imagine if I kept at it, I could legitimately get to radiant stars in weapon/helm by paragon 100.

        Do you need radiant stars or marquise in all your equipment? No, maybe just radiant emerald or ruby in the weapon. +16% vs +17% extra life is not worth the many millions.

        • I think the hope/goal of someday obtaining the best possible gear is what animates many players. Obviously your odds of finding a CC Mempo are pretty low, but it’s possible. And the odds of finding the really high runes in D2 were very low, but again, possible.

          Gem upgrades in D3 are different, since there’s no real luck involved in the RNG. Just lots of gradual accumulation of gold and Tomes and gems. Thus I imagine a self found player looking at prices that were added in patches, with very high numbers set as gold sinks to bleed off the profits made from AH-sales, would be annoyed. As the devs are basically saying they can’t have these things as a punishment for playing the game in legit fashion.

          You may be right and self found players are happy with being blocked from the best stuff, but I kind of suspect otherwise…?

          • Sorry to beat the dead horse, but what motivated me to get a perfect +20 zod ring in Diablo 1 was that it would then let me change my shields of the Heavens for an Obsidian Shield, which in turn would let my exchange my Obsidian Helm for a Godly Helm of the Stars, which in turn would let me exchange my Awesome Full Plate for a slightly worse Awesome Full Plate of the Stars, which in turn meant I could do a lot of extra damage and have a lot of extra mana than otherwise.

            In other words, a small amount of perfection in D1 greatly opened out your gear choices, which in turn would change the way you play.

            I don’t think anyone would change the way they play if they had +17% HP instead of +16% HP on their helm in D3. Nor would that 1% cause anyone to change any of the other gear on their character.

          • I don’t understand the problem about high gems prices when playing Self-Found.

            What counts as playing Self-Found is to use the gear you have found/crafted/vendored yourself, and i don’t see any problem to use GAH to sell stuff you have self-found, but never buy. If you sell items then you get the money for the gems upgreads and if you don’t use GAH for buying, you will have to spend that money on something anyway.

          • “I think the hope/goal of someday obtaining the best possible gear is what animates many players.”

            And what happens after you’ve found all the best gear within a year? You stop playing? How many high-level D2 runes did you ever manage to find or cube? Again, how many legit self-found Enigmas do you think ever actually existed?

          • @flux – gems do exactly what you say, they are constant predictable progress. As you get to higher tiers as self found, you have to weigh whether it is better to roll 20 archon chests or make a high tier gem. One is guaranteed improvement, the other is a gamble.

            Marquise are in a weird place. They are specifically there as a gem and gold sink for ah tycoons. The archon crafts are well balanced for self found play. The 6 prop rares crafts are not worth it.

    2. This is hilarious.

      At first, the players were like “RMAH sucks! I will play Ironborn, I will not use the AH or trade to anyone to show HOW the game should be played. /GG”

      and then they are already saying “OMG BLIZZARD help us with the economy wtf I can’t play this!”

      Why in the blue hell would Blizzard even bother to lower the cost just to please would-be Ironborners if it defeats the purpose of “iron born”?

      So, so terrible.

      • Well Hellfurion, thats exactly why Ironborn players are asking for a separate system… You can’t have both in the same economy.

        • you are missing the point.

          i get it that they wanna get separated. that is not the argument here.

          it is when they are asking for the economy of D3 in general to be nerfed so that they can afford to be separated. get it?

          it is basically the same for Hardcore players asking Blizzard to “nerf the monsters a little bit” so they won’t die.

          point is, if they wanna play ironborn, that is fine and that is their choie. by all means do it. but do not ask Blizzard to change the game drastically just to cater your needs. for us “normal” players, we think the game is fine the way it is. it is the ironborn players that should adopt.

          • No Hellfurion, we are not asking “for the economy of D3 in general to be nerfed”. We are asking for EXACTLY the opposite! A separate Ironborn system will allow changes to drop rates and a decreases in crafting costs to be isolated and independent from the original game. That way you can have a viable Ironborn system that doesn’t totally destroy the game system for the AH players. You should be advocating for a separate Ironborn system simply to protect the integrity of YOUR playstyle.

      • I assume you’re trolling, but again, the whole point is that expenses for high level gems and crafting recipes were added in patches, and the prices are jacked up to function as gold sinks on the high end, to make their costs impactful for players who made fortunes using the AH.

        Those prices are, by definition, not suited to the gold you can make playing the actual game without AH sales. Hence the suggestion that self found players, who aren’t pulling in tens of millions with AH sales, could have an economy balanced for them. At the same time, many AH-users now don’t even notice the few million they drop while crafting, so those prices should probably be raised to make them impactful on even the rich.

        That last could be interesting; what if crafting had price tiers, with slightly increased odds of rolling better affixes for much higher gold prices?

        • I for one hope that they add an “ironborn” mode in D3X or something. I’m not exactly in the position to demand anything, given that I’ve only played D3 2-3 times since last summer, but the economy was one of the major reasons I stopped playing.

          In no way can I afford to upgrade gems or craft equipment. A typical A1 clear net me only a few hundred thousand after repair costs. Yes my gear sucks and I’m only paragon 2 or 3 or something, but the point is that I’m not finding anything that helps me get better, and I don’t earn anywhere near enough in order to craft/upgrade. Thus I found the grind boring and simply stopped playing (still only in A2 Inferno).

          Really hope that they make some changes in the expansion that promote self-found play. I mean, I became sick of grind before I even cleared it on all difficulties, simply because I felt that all the game did was punishing me for not using the AH.

          • One of the central points of the “Loot 2.0” fixes is to make self finding more viable; to give players the thrill of finding an upgrade in-game, rather than via the AH. Which should please you, at least more than the current system.

            It’s hard for the devs since most of the noise and attention goes to the high end, end game, Inferno, etc. But plenty of more casual players don’t benefit from those changes, or have difficulties or issues with the game that aren’t at all shared by people with 2000 hours played and 10b in the bank. And the AH only makes that harder, since there’s such a direct route from gear to gold and back to gear in D3 that everything basically comes with a price tag on it.

            • Exactly.

              It will be very interesting to see what they reveal on Wednesday, and if any changes with D3X will promote self-found play (given that Loot 2.0 actually makes it into the game before the expansion). My hopes are high!

              (Also naively crossing fingers for Act-travelling in-game and fixed skill point distribution).

      • For your information “Ironborn” does not meant “stupid”. Yes, it means using your own drops as items…but within a game with a healthy economy. A game where you have 99.9% drop chance of totally crappy stats, where you can’t get and upgrade if you don’t use AH (or play 99999999h and get lucky – by Daft Punk)…it’s not a good game in a farming way. It could be funny, but not worth farming, zero rewards, no items, no progression, nothing! ^^p

    3. no.
      if they need to change too many aspects of the game it would be:
      a) too confusing for players
      b) too work-heavy.

      Idea is ridiculus, why you want have instantly best gems?
      Farm them with pain!
      Thats the purpose of self-found mode, right?

      • I tend to agree. The point of playing ironborn is for a challenge. It doesn’t make sense to me to turn around say “well this is too hard”.

        In theory, the devs could tune the game such that ironborn is easy. At which point the people who actually want a challenge will seek some sort of playstyle even more difficult than ironborn to find a challenge.

        • I don’t play ironborn for the challenge. I play ironborn because that’s how a Diablo game is played to me. I don’t understand how an item-finding game is any fun when you just poke around in the AH for all the items, but hey, that’s me, and I don’t believe I am the only one. As others have pointed out above though, playing ironborn is no fun, because under the current economy, you can’t find anything, neither gear nor gold, and so the game is simply not fun to play.

          • YOu missed what i told.
            Items 2.0 will sort all of this problems you mention (i hope!).
            But i dont want to have completely 2 different games.
            I want simple:

            hc – death its permament
            self – found – no trades/ah.
            Not 12342134 rules in self-found mode.

            • I agree and hope that Loot 2.0 fixes many of my concerns, but I never said I wanted a lot of different rules for self-found mode. My only hope is that some changes will come which makes self-found more appealing to those who want to play it for the old-school Diablo flavor (read: no AH), not simply because it’s more challenging than the standard mode.

            • That’s not going to happen. You cannot balance both the ah version and selffound version without having 423231232 different rules between them.

              If you balance the game for selffound, the AH will be an incredibly easy way to play, like best in slot selling for 100k gold all over the place. If you balance the game for the ah, selffound will be quite hard and in some cases impossible.

    4. I’m currently Paragon 20. Paragon levels have caused significant problems. You have 2 tiers of players low para and high para, with hugely different gold find and mf effects. Paragon causes more trouble than its worth. I believe blizzard will significantly alter the system, because as it stands it goes totally against they’re casual friendly system.

      • I tend to agree that Paragon level bonuses are too impactful. Either that or there are too many paragon levels. At any rate, giving high level chars max MF/GF for free, in a game where exceeding 300-400% MF is really the key to unlocking high quantity legendary gear, is an issue.

        Like everyone else, I’m curious to see what Paragon 2.0 does, in terms of providing benefits to grinding and adding customization, without making the whole thing too overpowered or exacerbating D3’s general “rich always get richer” issues.

    5. I just hit level 60 with my hardcore characters, they’re all paragon 1 or 2 right now. (I have one of each class and I level them together.)

      I have a huge backlog of gems that I simply do not have the gold to upgrade. I’m sort of obsessive about upgrading all my gems, and I haven’t bought a single gem or tome off of the AH, and I still have WAY more gems than I have gold to upgrade them with.

      I sell stuff on the AH, and I hope as I level (assuming I don’t die) I’ll get more and more gold find, maybe even push into higher mp levels and get more gold, and it might EVENTUALLY even out. But right now it’s way, way unbalanced. And I’m not even self-found, I’m just relatively new.

    6. Well, money is rather hard to come by. I played SF for several monthes now (around 300 hours, total). I just got the “10 millions gold pieces found” achievement. I obviously got more money than that with the loot I sold to merchants. At the moment I have around 7 millions gold pieces. Of course, it will get better with higher parangon levels.

      So everything is rather expensive: crafting plans for armors (1.5 millions each), upgrading gems, crafting… At the same time, the game is feasible till Inferno MP0-1 with just the loots you find so there is no real need to craft. And, playing self-found you are not looking for BiS items. So a craft where you are already sure to have a high value for your main stat and a few other useful stats may already be an improvement over what you found.

      Improving gems, I consider that as a long term goal. When you have a main char, you can slowly upgrade his gems. And, as mentionned before, if you do not get the few last % of life or critical hit damages, it is not that important.

      Somehow, if you play SF, you have a different ruleset. You accept the fact that you will not have the best items, that you will probably never go beyond MP3 or whatever… So, you are looking as the best possible items (as everybody in the game) but in the limits imposed by the ruleset. If you really want the highest level, the best equipement… you do not play SF.

      So I do not think there should be a separate mode or whatever for SF players. It kinds of defeat the purpose. If you had a simpler ruleset (better loot, cheaper craft) in the “official ironborn mode”, some people would start playing ironborn in the “normal GAH/RMAH” mode to have a better challenge. I think a better solution to this problem would be to let people create games with titles (see D2) that would accomodate much more easily different playstyles.

    7. Wonder what will happen to Paragon levels in the expansion, how how it will affect “classic d3”. Or people that don’t buy exp right of the bat.

      Imo in self-found you just pass off too much, while trying to fix the game lack of reward mechanisms. Max i’ve done is till act 2. Then i go buy stuff. 😐

      By the way, Gamescon announcement today or tomorrow?!?

    8. It seems that many people here have played the game for lengthy hours and are against lowering craft prices. Playing SF and not that often in the beginnings I remember that 100k seemed a fortune and 1m very far away. While I understand that SF (or even casual playing) means to never get the BiS gears, however, I think crafting (which is fun and will probably be better again with the mystic) must not be reserved for AH or RMAH or long long long time players. Yet, to buy gold is cheap now so I guess a weak SF play could be: by a quarter worth of gold (or beg for it) for crafting but don’t use the AH afterwards.

    9. This is nonsensical, but yov has it covered (as usual).

      The point of self-found is, in part, to draw out the “content” by slowing the pace of gear acquisition. Upgrading gems gives you something to work towards. Being able to craft archon amulets (which requires brimstones, which requires a legendary that you don’t want to use or keep) takes a while to achieve from a fresh self-found character. Basically, this is ridiculous; shut up and click on monsters until they die.

      Also, since it touches on something that Flux mentioned: one of the big appeals of Diablo games, to me, is that content isn’t gated by either “forced playing with others” or “forced long stretches of gaming.” While the downside is excessive RNG in terms of gear (and possibly other things, if there were non-gear content in endgame…), the upside is that you can get any content (again, read, gear) at any point. I got a great IK Chest as my first ilvl 61+ legendary on my very first A3 farming run. That’s awesome, and while gear isn’t that exciting to me, it still felt great. It felt even better when I was able to, after months and months, craft some perfect star emeralds to fit into my weapons (the difference was steady versus random and immediate). If people want stuff as soon as their brains can fathom it, they can go play an old school Genesis game with a Game Genie…

      • shut up and click on monsters until they die. I LOL’d. 😀

        As a semi-random sidenote, that comment makes me realize why I found the recent whining that the console TV ad was “casual friendly” (the horror!!) so grating – Diablo is, and has always been, a very simple, very casual-friendly game. Diablo is not some hardcore gaming masterpiece of depth and grand tactical thinking. Mostly, you shut up and click on monsters until they die.

        If anything, D3 is the *least* casual-friendly Diablo game because, unlike D1/D2, almost all half-decent builds will require you to use multiple skills to be able to survive, something the one-skill wonder-world of past Diablo games could rarely claim.

    10. I’m not sure if this has been discussed but due to botting there is a huge influx of gold in the economy. Without all this gold there would not have been the huge inflation that has happened, it would have been much more gradual. Without all the bots many many more players would be in the same boat as self found players as the AH would not reap the same rewards (some good rewards, yes, but not the billions that exist now), and there would not have been the need for such high gold sinks. There would be LESS disparity between AH users and Non AH users. Botting has exacerbated the issue big time.

      Fix the botting.

    11. QUOTE

      "I think the hope/goal of someday obtaining the best possible gear is what animates many players."
      
      And what happens after you've found all the best gear within a year? You stop playing? How many high-level D2 runes did you ever manage to find or cube? Again, how many legit self-found Enigmas do you think ever actually existed?

      Yes. Difference is you leave happy.

    12. Ironborn = retardation plain and simple. The very decision to do that in a game with terrible drop rates designed around the existence of the AH and terrible/boring items in general is RETARDED. It’s no surprise those idiots are whining.

    13. 1.You can even say that AH can help SF players. Found nice item that you won’t use? Put on AH and earn gold to craft.

      2.Where is MF gear? I mean, before Paragon Levels everyone was running with MF gear. You don’t have 100PL? Wear MF gear (to be honest, I never ran with MF gear, ~230% what I have now with para 22-26 is most I ever had :))

      3.You know what could be interesting? Min cap on AH items. For example 1mil for 60lvlreq (scalling ofcourse). This would cut all this easy, cheap upgrades.

      That’s it for me. Keep up with great job Ironborns. Hope to do this after Xpac.

      • Exactly Mortalo. Paragon system has totally negated and destroyed the decision to wear MF or increase DPS/HP. There needs to be a trade off. They originally put Paragon in to (in part) alleviate the problem that people were swapping out DPS gear for their MF gear just before the kill. The obvious solution was to disallow gear swapping during combat. But in typical Blizzard fashion “we didn’t want to take something away from the players” and created the Paragon system. This has caused more problems than its worth, not only did they remove another type of customisation i.e. now only MAX DPS matters. You now have a two tiered player base, low Paragons who never see any drops and high paragons who have gold and gear to their eyebrows. You absolutely can not balance gear and gold drop rates in that environment.

    14. I guess a middle ground to solution would be to sell things on the AH but never buy things from the AH.

    15. QUOTE=Lorderan;8551388]Paragon system has totally negated and destroyed the decision to wear M
      I’m going to call this out every time I see it mentioned, because it’s that important:

      Paragon system has totally negated and destroyed the decision to wear MF or increase DPS/HP. There needs to be a trade off. 

      I strongly disagree. The entire point of the game is to have fun killing monsters and have fun acquiring new equipment for my character. I shouldn’t have to trade off between the two. That’s like saying in Unreal Tournament, I should have to trade off between having fun killing the enemies and winning that round. They aren’t always the same thing, depending on the game mode, but they shouldn’t be competing interests.

      • Your right MindGeyser, but you haven’t taken into account the huge disparity in gear drops between low and high paragon. That is a massive problem.

    16. QUOTE

      I'm going to call this out every time I see it mentioned, because it's that important:
      
      I strongly disagree. The entire point of the game is to have fun killing monsters and have fun acquiring new equipment for my character. I shouldn't have to trade off between the two. That's like saying in Unreal Tournament, I should have to trade off between having fun killing the enemies and winning that round. They aren't always the same thing, depending on the game mode, but they shouldn't be competing interests.

      If this were true (it’s not) than they should just give everyone free 500% MF from the get-go and remove it as an item mod.

    17. QUOTE

      No Hellfurion, we are not asking "for the economy of D3 in general to be nerfed". We are asking for EXACTLY the opposite!

      One nerfed or the other buffed makes no difference. You want Blizzard to compensate you for decisions you make about your playing style.

      • Yeah I do TheNix. I’m not some dumb ginnypig that sits on a tredmill going after gear knowing I’ll NEVER see any because the drop rate is 100-fold lower than it should be because of the AH.

    18. A gear decision between MF and DPS/defense is a crappy decision anyway. The game shouldn’t be easy enough to pick the MF choice, and most likely it will just multiply any class balances in terms of how much MF gear they can use.

    19. Don’t you think it is a bit on the conceited side to tell Blizzard that the game would be better if it was made the way you want it? To almost demand them to rework the game so you find it more enjoyable?

      • Why TheNix? Um, the developers themselves say they play Ironborn, they have strongly and repeatedly asked for feedback. I’m giving feedback. Furthermore, most of the Devs play Ironborn themselves, so it is a gameplay style that Blizzard is likely to be support in the future. I don’t get people who don’t play Ironborn as so drastically against the system? Why are you so against it?

    20. QUOTE

      Don't you think it is a bit on the conceited side to tell Blizzard that the game would be better if it was made the way you want it?  To almost demand them to rework the game so you find it more enjoyable?
       Not really. Demanding things are kinda silly to being with, but wanting a better game for people like yourself seem quite reasonable.  Not like I want go around and hope for a game developer to make a game better for someone else, since I would have no reason to care about their game to begin with if that was the case.  Beside, I would like to believe that 'better game for me' = 'better game for a lot of people'. Of course we would probably all want to believe that, and we can't all be right :P
    21. I play as if the auction house didn’t exist. In SC, my highest paragon is in the 50s, rest of my characters are Paragon 1-10. My highest is my DH, who has about 100k dps, and can run MP3 reasonably well. I feel that is acceptable.

      I haven’t put as much time in on HC, so my highest character is only about level 50 (not paragon, actual level).

      I’m working to get all the achievements in the game playing self found and solo or just with my husband for the co-op ones. I joined a public game for 3 seconds to get the couple achievements that require it. At this point I’m at 91% and almost everything I have left is either Hardcore or Co-op. I figure by the time I finish A Unique Collection, I’ll have almost all of the rest done.

      As for gems, I’ve focused pretty heavily on upgrading them, and I’ve reached the point that Tomes are my limiting factor. I’m getting enough to keep up on 3 of the 4 gem types, but not enough to keep up all 4 types. I want to get at least one of each type of Radiant Star for the achievement, but don’t really care about Marquise. It is an achievable goal. I’m more than 1/3 of the way there now.

      So in short, I feel that the balance is not bad, and am content to keep playing self found.

    22. QUOTE

      Why are you so against it?

      I’m not, I play D2 and PoE SP only and without trading so I guess that makes it “ironborn”. I played D3 the same until I realised that the game simple wasn’t good enough to put the time that is required to play it “ironborn”. It is the constant whining that sets my teeth on edge. I don’t play HC because I’m not good enough, simple! If you are not good enough to play “ironborn” find another game. Feedback is one thing, petulance is another.

    23. If you’re going to play self-found, you’re going to have to accept that you won’t get everything unless you put in an inhuman amount of hours into the game. It’s just the nature of a game like Diablo 3. If I recall correctly the poster “Darkchaos” on these forums had 3 level 99s in single player Diablo 2, and he still didn’t get a Zod rune to drop. Having a practically unreachable goal isn’t necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. I don’t think the topic of this thread is a big problem in Diablo 3 right now.

    24. I guess this quarrel between those who wants higher drop rates and/or decreased gold amount for crafting will never end. A thread about this on the official forum is started every five minutes (particularly during maintenance). It will never settle between the “play 2h a day” and “play 2h a month”. They do not have the same gold income. It is not a matter of skill or game difficulty, it is a matter of playing often or not. I understand people who play from time to time but want to be able to craft with buying gold in the RMAH (which is so cheap that it makes grinding gold not worth it).

    25. QUOTE

      If you're going to play self-found, you're going to have to accept that you won't get everything unless you put in an inhuman amount of hours into the game. It's just the nature of a game like Diablo 3. If I recall correctly the poster "Darkchaos" on these forums had 3 level 99s in single player Diablo 2, and he still didn't get a Zod rune to drop. Having a practically unreachable goal isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. I don't think the topic of this thread is a big problem in Diablo 3 right now.

      The difference between not getting everything, and feeling like you get nearly nothing, is fairly huge however.

    26. QUOTE

      If this were true (it's not) than they should just give everyone free 500% MF from the get-go and remove it as an item mod.
      Actually, they probably would help a lot of people enjoy the game more if they did exactly that. So what specifically did you disagree with?
      
      
      Your right MindGeyser, but you haven't taken  into account the huge disparity in gear drops between low and high  paragon. That is a massive problem.
      Drop Magic find from that too. Let the only thing that affects Magic Find be some sort of seasonal buff like Diablo 3's first anniversary and from multilplayer. Any less is splitting focus. Players should be enjoying killing monsters and getting loot because of it. They shouldn't need to 'grind' monsters to get to a place where they can then gain loot, because players will then try to minimize their time spent grinding by whatever means (RMAH; builds the player may find unfun), while feeling like they're not playing the 'real' game while they're playing it because they're waiting for some day where the game works as they imagine it's intended once the grind ends and the game begins. That will be ultimately unsatisfying for a lot of people, because what was the grind was supposed to be the game.
      
      Again, it's unhealthy for the game for gaining loot and killing monsters to be two competing interests.
    27. QUOTE

      Actually, they probably would help a lot of people enjoy the game more if they did exactly that. So what specifically did you disagree with?

      I didn’t disagree, exactly, so much as make the point that If MF mods aren’t going to “compete” with other mods, than they are pointless to have in the first place. Which it seems we both agree on – the game would be better without the whole MF race. Just give us good drop rates without it and let whoever kills fastest get the most magics found.

    28. QUOTE

      1.You can even say that AH can help SF players. Found nice item that you won't use? Put on AH and earn gold to craft...
      I don't think "self found" players want to participate in the economy at all, meaning no AH.
      
      
      If this were true (it's not) than they should just give everyone free 500% MF from the get-go and remove it as an item mod.
      You don't get it for free. You have to hack and slay your way to p-100, and for that you get better odds of finding items through more gameplay.
      
      
      If you're going to play self-found, you're going to have to accept that you won't get everything unless you put in an inhuman amount of hours into the game. It's just the nature of a game like Diablo 3. If I recall correctly the poster "Darkchaos" on these forums had 3 level 99s in single player Diablo 2, and he still didn't get a Zod rune to drop. Having a practically unreachable goal isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. I don't think the topic of this thread is a big problem in Diablo 3 right now.
      I agree. I don't think I found a zod in 7-8 years of playing D2. (I had a few that were traded to me -- a lot of players just bought them in third party stores.)
      
      
      I didn't disagree, exactly, so much as make the point that If MF mods aren't going to "compete" with other mods, than they are pointless to have in the first place. Which it seems we both agree on - the game would be better without the whole MF race. Just give us good drop rates without it and let whoever kills fastest get the most magics found.
      Sure, but it's nice to reward those who put in the time and rack up the kills. Seems like MF is earned, which makes sense to me.
    29. QUOTE

      Sure, but it's nice to reward those who put in the time and rack up the kills.

      Your reward is better items which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster…

    30. QUOTE

      Your reward is better items which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster...

      shhhhh! You are giving away to the secret of the Diablo series!

    31. QUOTE

      Your reward is better items which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster which lets you kill monsters faster to get better items faster...

      True, but part of the reward for racking up the kills/experience in D3 is that you earn the advantage of finding better items on a more frequent basis.

      There’s no reason an experienced/high level character would need to “get worse” at something in order to get better at finding items. The whole notion of a piece of equipment somehow conferring MF is kind of odd to begin with. I can see how a piece of armor would help protect against combat damage, but not sure about the rationale for it making magic stuff pop up more often.

    32. I agree MF shouldn’t be on items in d3, and I’m kinda torn on whether it should even be on paragon levels.

      In d2 MF was fun because it gave you more sets and uniques, but those were only fun to obtain because a set of non-mf gear with better stats was useful for dueling, baal runs, ubers, farming socketables and runes, equipping numerous alts.

      In d3 legendaries, sets and rares are the only useful items, dueling is boring and the hellfire ring is acc bound so no reason to run ubers after getting one you like. This means you will always want to max your MF, and there is rarely an occasion where you wouldn’t want to focus on extra MF.
      Thus players could either have it as an important stat taking precedence over a socket on the last affix of an item with trifecta/main stat/vita, or blizzard could make gearing for it obsolete because having a socket is more ‘fun’ because you get ‘customization’ and gems outside of emeralds for weps won’t be useless.

      You already get more drops from being higher paragon because you have better gear and stats = you can farm faster/higher MP, but I’m sure higher MF is more rewarding to those who go through the grind.

      In response to the OP, you dont need upgraded gems to beat inferno, and if you play to attain farm on mp8 or get BIS then you shouldn’t play ironborn, because it will be boring and take years/forever depending on your definition of BIS. I will also say, in part to toot my own horn and in part to make a point that the game is easy, that I’ve beaten inferno on hardcore with ironborn restrictions in addition to playing single pass – only visiting and clearing each area once without rerunning.

    33. QUOTE

      Sure, but it's nice to reward those who put in the time and rack up the kills. Seems like MF is earned, which makes sense to me.

      I’m not trying to pick at your phrasing, but I’d like to make a distinction between a player playing for some purpose other than to grind to a state where their MF is acceptable (that is, racking up the kills to find better items), and a player finding better items because they’ve racked up so many kills. I think the first scenario is counter-productive for the longevity of the game, and the second requires a high enough chance of finding good items to where a system that gradually rewards a player with increased magic find over a long period of time is largely ineffective. The player will have had to rack up so many kills with a reduced chance of finding a quality item on any of them, that the bulk of the time spent before whatever MF breakpoint the player finds suitable will be considered ‘dead’ time and no real reward at all.

      In short, the reward for MF at P60 (as an example) is paid for by grinding past P59 – you necessarily spent more time getting there with suboptimal MF and lowered hopes than enjoying it and have increased the risk of player burnout for it.

      Giving the players something else – almost anything else short of a poke in the eye – would work better.

    34. QUOTE

      I'm not trying to pick at your phrasing, but I'd like to make a distinction between a player playing for some purpose other than to grind to a state where their MF is acceptable (that is, racking up the kills to find better items), and a player finding better items because they've racked up so many kills. I think the first scenario is counter-productive for the longevity of the game, and the second requires a high enough chance of finding good items to where a system that gradually rewards a player with increased magic find over a long period of time is largely ineffective. The player will have had to rack up so many kills with a reduced chance of finding a quality item on any of them, that the bulk of the time spent before whatever MF breakpoint the player finds suitable will be considered 'dead' time and no real reward at all.
      
      In short, the reward for MF at P60 (as an example) is paid for by grinding past P59 - you necessarily spent more time getting there with suboptimal MF and lowered hopes than enjoying it and have increased the risk of player burnout for it.
      
      Giving the players something else - almost anything else short of a poke in the eye - would work better.

      Sort of, but at P59 you would have +177% MF and at, say P70, +210% MF. Because the game is RNG-based, what is “optimal” or “suboptimal”? Plus, in playing up to P59, presumably you’re gaming and having fun anyway – i.e., not grinding but playing the odds and improving your character through practice, gold gain, and the odd item that you might use or sell.

      Not sure how the 33% difference in my example would result in burnout or pure joy. There aren’t really breakpoints, per se, as I understand it.

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