Blizzard's CMs Defend D3 Character Non-Permanance - Diabloii.Net

Blizzard’s CMs Defend D3 Character Non-Permanance


There are two simple reactions to the fact that many features have been iterated, re-iterated, and de-iterated back to their starting point during Diablo III’s development. The first is that it demonstrates the importance of debating the pros and cons of various features, since the devs are clearly open to changing their plans through testing. The second is that there’s no point in paying any real attention to whatever they say right now, since they’ll probably say the opposite next month/week/year.

We’ve seen numerous examples of this over the past few years of D3, as things like attributes, the town portal, character customization options, etc changed repeatedly. Most recently we got Bashiok explaining why public chat channels were not in D3 and would be a terrible feature, two days before he confirmed that they were in D3 and would be a good thing for communication and community building.

Basically, it’s the job of Blizzard’s CMs to defend whatever is (currently) in the game. Which is fine, but when you know they will (and often have) argued just as passionately for the converse, it can be hard to take their words seriously. That said, here are several recent CM-penned defenses of the lack of character customization/permanence in D3. They’re all long, so here’s the start of a recent Bashiok thread. Click through for the rest of it and two MOAR on similar topics.

Good read CloudAtlas. I don’t know if I agree with all of it, and I think it’s probably just too complicated to try to label these things, but some fun theories. You also of course left out the teeming masses of players who don’t fall into the groups you described.

What I wanted to address was one of the responses though, because I see this point still being made a lot:

D3 has been stripped of all character development choices. Thus any pride you take in developing your character (either min/max or non-) is gone.
It has exactly the same character development choices it’s always had, so that clearly can’t be true.

What’s changed? Well, let’s throw away ‘permanent choice’. I can argue against permanent choice and then you back down and say “No no, it doesn’t need to be permanent, just meaningful, like some price to respec”. So let’s focus on that…

What about a cost to respec makes the character development choices more meaningful? I mean actually meaningful and not just restrictive? You can say that making it difficult to change them makes them more meaningful, but that’s a logical fallacy. If I could, with the wave of a magic car wand, have any car in the world that I wanted, would that reduce the importance of the one I choose? I may enjoy some cars more than others, I may like their physical appearances, I may prefer one over another for performance reasons, but does that make my choice less impactful? Furthermore does it feel good to realize “Actually I don’t like this car, can I choose a different one?” and being charged to do so (or told no in the case of permanence).

Why is my ability to choose what I want, when I want, a devaluation of the personal decisions that I make? They’re my decisions. They’re personal. I can choose a build because I love one specific skill and my build is based to support that one skill. How does it devalue that, my choice, if I can then decide I don’t like it any more, and try something else? Why do I need to be punished to enjoy the game?

This is, as always, discounting itemization as a meaningful form of character customization.

While the immediate experience of saying ‘fack, I screwed up there’ is not pleasant, there is not necessarily anything wrong with something negative happening to the player in the game. Like anything, making mistakes with negative repercussions is what makes us learn, adapt and improve; because we don’t want that to happen again. Games are lacking that more and more these days, with everything amounting to having your hand-held and never hitting the wall of your errors and stopping to assess what you are doing wrong.

Sure a player won’t like being ‘punished’, but having learned from that ‘punishment’, the next time out when they have increased their knowledge and improved – the feeling of satisfaction the player will get is more rewarding than just being on cruise control and being taken care of.
This is all assuming that out of the billions of combinations available to your character you’ll pick your skills, die, say A ha! and know exactly how to fix it. With that many choices, which very much include itemization, is it believed you’ll just think “Well I think I need more mana regen because I’m running out.” replacing one of the only 6 skills you have available to you, and that actually working and now you have the perfect character? If so, you hit the jackpot and should go buy a lottery ticket. The tuning of character builds, experimentation, and sheer amount of options and super limited amount of choices you can make … It feels like people think they can just throw anything together, with any items, and be successful. Or worse yet, throw something together, fail, and believe they’ll know the absolute right answer to solve it.

I realize some people want a time investment attached to that experimentation, but that’s just not something we agree with. There are ways we can still provide ‘street cred’ without impacting core game systems integral to the enjoyment to everyone that picks up the game.

“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.”
— Theodore Roosevelt

Good old Teddy! Unfortunately what we’re talking about here is a video game, and not you actually improving yourself through your efforts in a form of entertainment.

I’m sure he’d love playing Diablo III … after a hard day at work of effort, pain, and difficulty. I will too.

Bashiok, I’m sorry, but if you don’t understand that every game (video or otherwise) is defined by its rules, its restrictions and the punishments you receive when you break them, then you don’t belong in the gaming industry.
Well I’m not a designer let’s be clear, but I’ve many times stated that games are defined by their limitations, so we’re on the same page there.

This discussion isn’t about the need of rules or not, it’s about placing them appropriately and using them wisely where they make sense. There are inherent rules that make the Diablo game what it is. It has a fixed camera, you have to click on enemies, they have randomized chances to drop items, through the various rules of skills and the limitations of how many you can have there are fun and interesting choices as to how you want to approach combat. The game is full of rules and limitations … it’s that punishment part we don’t really agree with nearly as much as some people.

We have a gold cost for dying, which is actually fairly significant, but that’s about as far as we go for being punishing. What should happen is you should be tested and rewarded for your ability to kill enemies, get items, and not die. That makes sense to us, and for this game.

A fan quoted Bashiok’s recent post about D3 vs. D2 features, took the “broken” part out of context, and started a thread in which Daxxarri did all he could to defend D3’s lack of character customization/permanence.

Bashiok are you honestly saying most changes were made with the team agreeing that the mechanics were broken?
Are you really taking a single sentence out of the entire post out of context, and basing a large response post with an erroneous premise of your own on it?

We all subscribed to the idea that in an RPG you build a character, there’s an investment in those choices, and that makes the game fun. We do not believe that to be true for these two games any longer, it may make total sense for another game, but for ours it does not.
Sure, what that statement applies to specifically is that stat allocation in past games wasn’t really customization. It boiled down to a decision between a ‘right choice’ and a ‘wrong choice’. It was only (arguably) fun for those who made the right choice. Realistically, most players who made the ‘right’ choice only really knew it was the right choice because they were copying something they read elsewhere. Players who made the ‘wrong’ choice had a character that was less effective. So, playing ‘correctly’ wasn’t really rewarded, and playing ‘incorrectly’ was punished, severely and without much recourse.

In the end, it wasn’t really customization, it was the illusion of customization that amounted to a narrow pathway with a sheer drop off on either side.

But how is it true for skill choices? There weren’t just a right and wrong answer for skill choices in D2, but in D3 any sense of building your character through the choices of skills seems to have gone out of the window.
I dislike real world analogies, but try this one on for size:

“That’s like saying because you can change clothing, that assembling an outfit goes out the window.”

When you’re choosing skills, runes (and yes, there are choices as you unlock more and more of them), and gear, you’re assembling them toward a cohesive whole. While you’ll be free to change, that doesn’t mean that you’ll want to. The customization is there, but the sense of a whole ‘thing’ is there too. Much as you would change, for example, the jacket you’re wearing with an outfit, you might swap a single skill, or change some runes around, but you can still arrive at something that works.

All we want is some slight punishment to make you stick with decisions a little more.
Hrm. Why?

Why is the permanence of those decisions important to you?

Because permanence makes those decisions meaningful ways to define your character.
Why isn’t the way you play your character, in itself, and including the flexibility of selecting the right tools for the job, more meaningful than arbitrarily permanent choices? Because everyone would play the same way?

Would they? Would they not ‘spec’ the same way, if that way is truly optimal? What’s the conclusion here?

Finally, Bashiok leapt into a thread where a fan was lamenting the loss of early experimentation with variant builds. These are no longer possible since skill runes were removed as item types. Now you can only try out the various rune effects once they become available at Clvl 34, or 45, or 52, or whenever, rather than as soon as you find the runes and the base skills are available. So yeah, most of the varied builds will still be supported, but not until much higher levels, where the difficulty will be (obviously) a lot steeper.

Farewell Ice Wizard, You Shall Be Missed!

And Rocket Demon Hunter. And other themed builds.

I’m one of those players who loves leveling ‘themed’ classes, and the two I had set my little birdy heart on were a rocket themed DH using the ‘Bombardment’ rune among others, and an ice themed Wizard using, among others, an ice runed Meteor and Hydra.

So finally checked the skill tool with the updated requirements.
‘Comet’ (Ice Meteor) requires Level 50.
‘Frost Hydra’ requires Level 50+
‘Bombardment’ requires level 50+.

This means that I won’t even so much as be able to try my theme builds until mid->late Hell, in which case they are unlikely to work due to min/maxing. Leveling them was the part I was most looking forward to.

Am I the only one sad about not being able to level as a theme build?


Bashiok: Personally I rather like it. It’s a restriction that feels rewarding when you get there, but doesn’t require anything but continued progression. Plus there’s going to be so many options unlocking while leveling I think it’ll make me probably try some things I otherwise wouldn’t have. Now that we have all the new systems in I’m going to start from the beginning as soon as I get home, and hope to share more about how systems work for me personally beyond level 13.

Tagged As: | Categories: Blizzard People, Blue Posts, Respecs, Skills

Comments

You're not logged in. Register or login to post a comment.
  1. I am sorry, but all i see when i read blues now is …blablablablabla….

    • This in particular. So many words to say so little. It’s a non-argument.

      • Then I guess neither of you read what he actually had to say.

        • Completely agreed Soval.  This is one of the times when Bashiok makes a good point and defends it well.  The days of rerolling to respec are OVER thank god.

          • Well the first two guys Bashiok responded to weren’t really saying much, so Bashiok’s response didn’t say much in return. My fear with respec is that swapping depending on game content will become preferable in terms of monster-killing efficiency. This is linked to the item game, because if items are too generic, it will discourage the use of semi-permanent builds in which players don’t need to respec to improve monster-killing efficiency in any game area. I could infer based on Bashiok’s passionate support of respec that the above fears will not come to pass, but that’s just wishful thinking.

  2. Jeez. If the purists/sadists want permanence and punishment for poor skill selection, they should impose that restriction on themselves. How others enjoy the game should have no bearing on your preferred play style. 

    Seriously. How is this even worth arguing?

    Not everyone wants to spend endless hours levelling new chars just to try what is the new flavour of the month, or to circumvent the most recent patch’s nerf effects (you know it will happen, time and time again). 

    The game is done, take it out of the oven already! 🙂

    • Finally someone using logic… thanks

    • +1000

      I’m really tired of this argument. 

    • well there is a huge gap for me between permanent choice and “switch all you want all game long”

      15 sec cd is no punishment at all , and runes no longer pose a restriction either; so yeah nice now i can play 2h and use every damn skill equally often… ; that being said i think that every skill switch should atleast prevent you 10 minutes from switching that skillslot out again once you`ve beaten normal.

      oh and dont bullshit me with that “but your gear does not suit all speccs”-crap. the only thing you currently have to consider is ; do i go alot of crit / a lot of attack. thats currently the only meaningful decision you can make that does noteably influences your playstyle according to your skills.
      it also ridicoules the 6 slot skill limit which currently only seems to be in place so that classes with many “active– Passive” skills like summons / selfbuffs has an advantage over that other class.
      and i doubt that + skill affixes are any deep either.
       
      iam pretty sure that they streamlined the game at this point very succesful, if you follow their current Skill branches “primary secondary defensive etc. pp” I think that you can barely mess up / or get much above / beneath the average strength. 

      so yeah no everything is about grinding and ” who has most time “/ “biggest purse for the RMAH”

      • So if you REALLY want your punishment in a video game ROLEPLAY it in yourself and drop half your gold when you change skills around.
         
        The rest of us will be playing to get rewarded for making logical skill choices.
         
        This whole argument is ridiculous. I am a beta tester and I played and still play diablo 2 from the onset.
         
        Oh and there is a thing called Elective Mode for skills. It’s not perfect I admit, but skill can get moved around a fair amount.

        • i dont give a crap about the roleplaying aspect or “identity” of your character ; but its just plain ridiculous if you can switch out your skills for that encounter X and than have to switch back because of encounter Y and  whatnot. if thats blizzards design goal its just plain stupid and diminishes the purpose the SKillslots in the first place.
          If you switch out runes / and Skills because you dont like them thats one thing , but switching out and replacing anything you can do on the flight like a dress up doll is just retarded, i dont even want a punishment , like a cost or whatnot but there have to be atleast restriction.

          • The point that you have failed to accept is that YES you CAN change skills from fight to fight, but you don’t have to. No one is making you do anything in your version of the game. If you want to feel a sense of permanence make your choices permanent. If you want to play with others that do the same, then find people who feel like doing the same.
            I personally call BS. People and I’m even willing to bet you will find the skills and runes they like and stick with them. 
             
            Blizz decided to leave those restrictions up to the player and I honestly commend them for it. I had my time as leveling 5 druids to perfect what I liked in D2, but can you truely and honestly expect or believe that people enjoyed doing that? Especially when a skillpoint was mistakenly placed and you knew it.
             
            This whole arguement is childish. Maybe they can make some achievements for you unrealists that are sarcastic in nature.
             
            the point since it was missed will be reiterated. If you want that aspect of the game a certain way, play it that way. My D2 replay was always based on synergy and gear perfection. And for the last patch of D2 that was made easier with respecs.

          • you dont bring up a single point as to why no restrictions are needed you just say ” it is what it is and i like it that way”  – thats a whole lot of nothing; and your druid example is also not relevant at all , because even with the nephalem altar you  could respecc easily.

            that being said ; you dont gain any credibility if you preted i claim that diablo 2 skill system is better ; you also dont gain any credibility if you say the argument is “childish” ; you could just aswell have said ” if you dont agree with me you’re stupid! ”
            and most stupid of all ” if you dont like it that way gimp youself ; because you dont have to use it AMIRITE ?”.

            there are only 2 possible scenarios ; either you can freespec every 10 min to make the best out of the situation and get an edge over less experienced / skilled / outgeared – People

            OR

            Diablo 3 is so homogenized , streamlined and dumbed down , that about every  skill combination which was made with ANY kind of thought and logic can succeed.
             
            i dont like either scenario. one Implies that your skill-switching  is mandatory and the other implies that the skillchoice irrelevant. and please keep the “there are 20 gazillion skill combination”- crap for yourself. even your Grandmother will understand 95% of the skill combinations can at best be considered redundant, or “makes not much of a difference either way”

      • I see Genocides has already suggested something of this nature, but I have an even better idea:

        Buy one of those cat o’ nine tails lashes and, whenever you do a change, punish yourself for it. It will make both the choice and the change a lot more meaningful to you.

    • I wonder if the people who are making these arguments that you should have a consequences for you build had Legos as a kid? With Lego, it was like having a million toys in one package. But I can only imagine some of these people superglueing their stuff together as they worked on building something blindly now and then when they ended up with a mess, they’d be all “well, that was fun”. And having to buy all the pieces again.

      • I remember my brother had built a giant Lego city, but all of the buildings were made up of different colored pieces and that really bothered me. So one time when he was gone I sat down and spent several hours trying to fix it so that the building’s pieces matched.

        Early stages of min/maxing?

        Um, yeah. Good analogy anyhow.

      • Lego still has rules and restrictions you moron, it’s called physics.
        All you idiots suggesting to actually LARP, please do us all a favor and never ever consider to actually make anything that’s even close to being considered a game, thanks.

    • To the whole ‘imposing restrictions on yourself to have fun’ idea.

      Why don’t we all go play Monopoly? Actually, why aren’t we playing Monopoly right now? Because it’s not fun? Well maybe we should just impose some extra rules on ourselves. Oh, you know what, screw that, let’s open up notepad… and just roleplay in some diablo 3 ‘the way it was meant to be played’. Sweet I just got a unique drop loot explosion. 

  3. I never read any of that, but I agree, people should buy more time shares.

  4. “What about a cost to respec makes the character development choices more meaningful? I mean actually meaningful and not just restrictive? You can say that making it difficult to change them makes them more meaningful, but that’s a logical fallacy. If I could, with the wave of a magic car wand, have any car in the world that I wanted, would that reduce the importance of the one I choose?”

    Of course it bloody does, that is a complete load of dribble.
    Sure its just a game, but how much time will people spend in this game?
    The decisicons we made in diablo 2 were important so we did think about them, making them permanent does make them more meaningful. In diablo 3 choosing what you use at the time means pretty much nothing long term and has less impact on the characte. Im sure old diablo 2 players remember certian builds they made / leveled to 80+ properly as they were set like that and stayed like that. Diablo 3 characters really will just be a barbarian / wizard etc rather than Smiter/Skelly necro / javazon etc.
    Just like i remember special builds i made in Baldurs Gate 1 through to the end of BG2 expansion.

    IRL, you make decisions and have to stick with them. Yes it makes the desicions more meaningful. 
    You pick things in life to be a permanent thing, and yes they are pretty much always more meaningful and important because of it. 

    Game wise, personally, it does take a lot of meaning out of the game, but im also past the point where it really matters to me. I dont play games anywhere near as much as i used to, and i dont want timesinks / spend that much time in them anymore. Maybe this is where they are comming from, so i can see why they did it. But in the end it will be a lot less memorable game because of it.

    • Sorry, but having to waste hours playing a gimp character to level 50 before I can actually get to my themed/chosen build is idiotic.  It’s not like I’m saving up skill points in D3 to spend later.   In D2, I could horde points, or spend them on synergies for later levels, so the lower levels were at least playable.  But guess what?  This isn’t D2.  It’s skill system is designed differently.
       

      • Yes because it’s either not having any rules/restrictions or never being able to fix any of your mistakes.
        Another classic case of black/white thinking of a retard that doesn’t have anything insightful to say.
        But you’re right, the last thing we want is some random moron wasting his time playing a gimped character. /decline of gaming/intelligence.

  5. Go to the skill calculator and try to design a build as if changing that build would be difficult.
    Now go to the skill calculator and try to design a build as if changing would be free and effortless.
    Then try and tell me there isn’t an enormous difference between those two experiences.

    ETA-I wonder if the pro-freespecs people would be okay with freespecs in the Arena, where (last we heard) you could not swap skills?

    • Mmm, well, I think of an arena match as akin to a single encounter in PvM. So no, just like in PvM, I don’t think that people should be able to swap skills constantly during an encounter because then it defeats the purpose of the six skill limit and will break the balance of the game. However, between encounters, if people realize that they want to edit their builds to better fit their vision/play style/preference or just to test, the I see absolutely no problem.

      I find that alot of people don’t give alot of credence to the fact that people will have to actually learn to use their selected load outs and just picking them is not enough. People have to learn timing, range, area of effect radius, combos etc. I don’t believe that permanence needs to be forced. It will come naturally, since people have to learn how to use their skills effectively and find the optimal equipment to support them.

      Look at other games like shooters, fighting games, MOBA games, trading card games etc. People have the ability choose whatever characters/weapon loadouts/ cards decks the want to use between games. They are not forced to stick to only one by arbitrary rules. However, mastery of these games requires extensive knowledge and skill with using ones selected characters/gun loadouts/ cards decks and thus people gravitate toward a few. I think D3 will be the same.

  6. I’m just concerned about the stability of the game post release. If the state and balance of the game can change from one week to the other it would make buying extremely highly priced items very risky which would discourage high value transactions. If that 20$ bestish-in-slot item gets changed (nerfed) next week because the moons position affected a developers period… well, I can see it becoming a problem on the buyer side. Likewise if I gather a set specifically tailored to a particular build only to have 1/2 the skills in the build “redesigned” for the above stated reason… well… it will get frustrating fast. I wouldn’t mind if they did it every 2-3 years (see patch 1.10 in diablo 2). But a erratic market is a stressful market… see the past few years of the global economy for references. Here’s to hoping for some semblance of stability in the released version.
     

  7. Where the game does not provide Your playstyle, You have to provide it Yourself. Its like with us not being able to play Hardcore from the start. Only You can restrict Yourself if the game doesnt. Want that fire Wizard built ? Dont change his skills or limit Yourself to the fire spells. Want to play HC from the start ? Reroll when You die in Softcore. It´s not an optimal solution but better than nothing. I will use my own houserules for sure…

  8. I am going to make a mace Barbarian, which was my favorite setup in D2. He will not be using anything but maces at any given time, no matter which uber swords etc might drop. I’ve used the skill calculator to design a D2 flavoured WW skill set and I can and will impose on myself to rigidly stick to that. There may or may not be better/more efficient options available, but that will be for a new clone; if I later decide that it was a wasted effort, I can change skills on the fly or I can wipe the character and start from scratch – I’d wipe the character, but not everyone would…

    I understand both sides of the issue concerning permanent choices, but what is the right solution? Do you force people to make hard decisions, which can make or break a character, or do you allow them flexibility to experiment as they see fit, without having to redo everything due to one mistake? If you do the first, you remove the option of the second, but if you do the second, the option for both is still available.
     
    For me, personally, it’s all about which skills I enjoy the most, not which skill is the most op this week – Fire sorcs in D2 is one of the most damaging setups you can make, but against fire immunes, it’s utterly useless. I don’t like being locked into a path, that force me to avoid 1/3rd of all monsters in a game that’s all about killing the damn things. My sorc is a tri-sorc: Orb, Thunderstorm and Hydra – a ‘useless build’ past 1.10, but it works for me and I enjoy playing it that way. That is a choice I’ve made and I can make similar choices with a freespec system like D3’s…   

  9. HAHAHA… There are so many trolls on this site. Seriously, Ordy go home to grannie and have a cookie with a glass of milk. If you want the decisicions you make in D3 to be permament than fine, pretend that they are permament. Don’t swap skills out of combat, just stick to the skills you choose when you’re embarrassing yourself on the skill calculator. Imagine that there is a hidden rule, forcing you to stick with only one build per character. The rest of us however will experiment and find the perfect build on the same char we started with. Blizzard has everything under controll. Please Blizz release the game and ,again, ignore whiners such as Ordy the Troll.  

    • Point of it is moron, it will not have a lasting effect like many other games. 
      I know ill enjoy the game, and can also pretty much guarantee because of the ability to swap the skills i wont play it anywhere near as much as Diablo 2.1 of each class is all we will need, which will mean i can play it and get over it a lot faster. Like i also said, im fine with that.

      You obviously didnt read the post, im not whining im pointing out that hes talking a load of shit. As you don’t understand that I wouldn’t be surprised if you are some kid who never even played the first 2 games.  

      • So, because in d2 you had to spend like a couple hour (or give some fgs to someone and come back a couple hours later) to get a fresh 80 character, it means you will play less d3. That means for say 3 variants for each class like 20 hours less than you did d2 ? Doesn’t sound like that big a deal to me, compared to the time you spend actually playing the characters and gearing them 🙂

        • After making 50+ characters from level one over 11 years (from release date), and leveling likely 40+ normally, yeah thats a lot of time.
          I liked leveling them, it was different each time, and a nice change of pace from mf / grinding. When in D3 you will just end up with a duplicate of another level 60 in the end rather than a completely different character, as there is nothing that will separate each character from the other. Especially now that runes are just level based, rather than something that you have to find and get consumed when you apply them.

          • You are suggest that two Wizards at level 60 will be quite similar and thus never have a reason to level a second Wizard since you can just free-spec your first one. Since we have all only been leveling to 13 I don’t see how you can justify your assumptions. We have yet to see the various items and armor that are available at the high-end. There could be affixes that affect poison or lightning skills, cooldowns, resistances, runes… there are so many combinations of items that could completely affect one particular build.
             
            An option of course would be to keep an entire set of armor/items for 2 different builds and just switch into them at different times (which people will probably do), or you could create a second Wizard that wears that second set.
             
            I think it’s too early to be spouting definitive statements like “there is nothing that will separate each character from the other”.

          • @Aurus, um how would the gear actually change anything?  If a different set of gear gives better bonuses for another spec there is still no reason to level up a new character to use it.  You’ll still have less entertainment freely swapping your gear set than you would if that new Wizard was invested in a completely different way.  Gear is even more swappable than skills however so it counts as even less of an investment in the uniqueness of the character.

          • Well if you did level that many characters normally, it does make a difference indeed, but the mechanics of d2 allowed for some easy quick rush. You chose to level those characters in that way regardless, why couldn’t you do the same thing with Diablo 3 then ? Hell if you like leveling characters you will most likely be able to sell them on the AH to profit from it once you’re done. Your point would be valid if we couldn’t level new characters at all, but the only thing there is with the current system is that we won’t be forced to. So I really don’t see in what way this could be worse.
            At least we’ll see some more diversity, and not just 2-3 different builds per class since it would be too harsh to spend all the time leveling a character to make an less competitive fun build.

          • @steveman0
            “If a different set of gear gives better bonuses for another spec there is still no reason to level up a new character to use it.”
             
            What I’m suggesting is 1) that potentially late-level weapon/armor sets are applicable for a particular build (which we can’t know because we’re still dinking around in the beta) and, if so, that 2) rather than keep 2 or 3 entire armor/weapon/etc sets for your 2 or 3 favorite builds you might create 2 or 3 different Wizard builds wearing those uniquely different set of armor.
             
            “Gear is even more swappable than skills however so it counts as even less of an investment in the uniqueness of the character.”
             
            I would disagree. In D2 my Assassin was based around getting and wearing Natalya’s set. That gear made me just as unique as the skills and attributes I chose. In that case (and many others I could offer) the gear and skills combine to create the character’s unique identity. And too, how many Hammerdins DIDN’T have an Enigma Rune Word?

  10. Complaining. Your speciality.

  11. I think I must be too invested in this game. This never-ending argument — and the inability for either side to compromise — makes my blood boil every time it comes up. The whole “you must be a sadist!!1” for enjoying Diablo 2 gameplay really just rubs me the wrong way.

    Just give me a level 60 Barbitchamonkzard Hunter with everything unlocked, take my keyboard, and provide me a lever to pull. I can’t be arsed to argue with people for tougher mechanics anymore, I just want to see shiny stuff drop.

    • Look son, it’s like this: I don’t think your a sadist for enjoying your permanent choices. What I think is you’re very close minded and rigid to the fact that OTHER PEOPLE may not agree with your particular choice of play. 

      I, for one hand, never cared much for experimenting myself with stats. I simply found several strategy guides, selected the skill build that I liked more (e.g., bone necro vs summoner necro, etc), then allocated all stats and skills EXACTLY as indicated in the guide.

      Then, the time I invested and the enjoyment I took out of it came PURELY from learning how to best use those predefined skills. How to best combine abilities in every encounter. THAT’S what was MEANINGFUL to ME! Wasting my time experimenting with sub-optimal stat allocation was NOT meaningful to me. Learning how to OPTIMALLY play an particular build with OPTIMALLY allocated stats was. 

      Now, D3’s Skill and Stats choice system does two great things: 
      1) It gets rid of the stats allocation part completely, something that provided absolutely no enjoyment for me, because 5 points more in this or that from one level to the next makes a very very marginal difference in how you play.
      2) It lets me actually experiment with the skills now without taking precious time from actually learning how to apply the skill well. Previously in D2, if I just wanted to be original and deviate from a strategy build, only to find out it was sub-optimal, I would have to re-roll the entire character. Even if all allocation choices had been optimal up to that stage, the game punished you with having to redo everything up to your last choice. As you get closer to max level, the cost of being creative was exponentially higher, given the time it took to level to 99. As a result, many just chose cookie-cutter builds with stats AND skill allocation already prescribed. The D2 system encouraged LESS personalization, not MORE. 

      • Way to dismiss an argument and then essentially just invert it. 

        • He didn’t present an argument, he simply said he enjoyed the D2 play style. I provided my personal example to show that he does not represent the entire world when it comes to what is enjoyable in a game. 

          If you want to see my arguments, scroll down and you will see a very long post detailing why D3 systems are superior to D2 systems, at least from what we’ve seen so far.  

  12. I think Bashiok has a point here. (regarding the non-permanence)

  13. Blizzard builds the idea and then plays it (internally) to death. After a while the implemented idea shows its ugly side and so they make changes accordingly, even taking the game in a completely different way.

  14. Permanence goes hand in hand with significance. It’s like getting married. It’s significant because it’s meant to be permanent. Things that are hard to back out of, or impossible even, are more meaningful. Some people derive more pleasure from meaning. Some people derive more pleasure from hedonism.

    I think that what Blizzard has chosen to espouse is that decisions of the moment, bereft of consequence, are more fun than ones of meaningfulness. They’re basically saying that it’s more fun to do a one night stand than to get married. Which is probably true for their target demographic.

    Ultimately, Blizzard is arguing for hedonism, which is their prerogative. It’s not a perspective that I agree with, but that’s what our culture sells, and that’s what our people buy. Their sales figures should reflect that nicely.  

    • You ever been married, mate? I was in a horrible marriage, due to the fact that my spouse wanted to live a single life in a relationship; something that only dawned on me after the fact. So you’re basically saying that because it’s supposed to be a ‘permanent, significant and meaningful’ choice, I should just have accepted what was wrong and lived with that for the rest of my life?

      Your comparison stinks of fail. 

      • It’s a comparasion, kid. I doubt you did your fullest to keep that marriage going. Fortunatly, here in Sweden it’s illegals for teen to marry. I just wish it would extend to “teen-minded” and not only teens. :mrgreen:

        Besides, one single incident doesn’t confirm the rule. Gash.

      • I have been married, yes. Divorced as well. Not something that I ever plan to repeat. 😉
         
        It’s not a perfect analogy, because you can always reroll a character in a game. What it was serving to illustrate is that, like marriage, choices of permanence, or near-permanence, have a tendency to be more meaningful, more special, than the fleeting enjoyment from a series of one night stands.
         
        Not that the pursuit of one way or another is better than the other. They’re different, for different people at different times. One night stands aren’t my bag, and neither is the lack of decision making consequence. Different strokes, and all that. I prefer the other way, and lament the current design philosophy that they’ve taken, but I’m sure, as I mentioned, that most people that will play the game probably feel differently.

        • Sorry for the harsh responce, just my ex-wife decided she could do everything she wanted to do, and I mean everything – which pissed me off being reminded of 🙂

          • No worries at all, man. I wasn’t offended. I don’t enjoy thinking about the insanity of the ex-wife either. She had her good parts, but her bad parts? Look out!

    • Son, it’s a good idea to check your dictionary before trying to be a philosopher on the forums. We have a saying where I’m from: if you had stayed quiet you would have appeared a philosopher.

      Hedonism is simply the idea that pleasure is the only intrinsic good. Hedonists simply attempt to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. The source of pleasure is not defined and just because someone claims he/she gets pleasure from more “meaning” doesn’t automatically make this person a non-hedonist.

      • But we know his point, so it dont matter if he added some word and got it wrong

        • Yes, it “do” matter…

          • I haven’t an interest in being a philosopher, but perhaps I could have chosen my words with more precision, father. Anecdotal experience has shown me that colloquially, hedonism is recognized as a term for path of least resistance in the pursuit of gratification. The avoidance of anything unpleasant. I think that the usage of the term was fine, but that rather than use “pleasure”, I should have more accurately specified “satisfaction.”
             
            In any event, clearly my specificity was lacking, but the point remains. Perhaps that clarification will avoid your further confusion.

          • @saltcadet

            This is going to be a long post, but it is needed to show that I am anything but confused when it comes to satisfaction from activities.

            Your point was that permanent choices are more significant, and therefore more meaningful, and therefore more satisfying. I’m not sure were you are getting all that, probably more anecdotal experience. While it’s true that more meaningful activities are more satisfying, and that more significant activities are more meaningful, other factors play into satisfaction as well (you should check Hackman and Oldham model of job satisfaction).

            One of them is variety. Having to play through Normal and Nightmare all over again with the same class because you made a poor skill choice on Hell is monotonous and repetitive and not meaningful.

            Not to mention that some people might not want to try a new choice because the current one has proven a failing path, but simply because they enjoy (that is, derive meaning from) trying different things. Using the same skills over and over, or having to pay a big price for being allowed to try new skills is repetitive, boring, and not meaningful.

            This also brings me to another factor that plays into satisfaction: autonomy. It is ironic to see people like yourself complain about removed player choice when attributes are discussed, but fail to see the increased player autonomy that comes with easy respecs. 

            Finally, another source of satisfaction is knowledge of results. When you have instant respecs you can choose a skill, try it out, see how it works in a situation, then try the next. The D2 solution was to try a skill and then, if you’re lucky to have chosen right, be happy about it, but if you were wrong, you had to go through all the previous content again before you were back at the current level to try a new choice. The new system gives you instant feedback of how well something works. With the old, you have to wait a long time before finding out whether your new choice is any better than the old, or whether it is yet another failing path. 

            In fact, the D2 system actually lacks most of the characteristics that make activities more satisfying. This is a fact proven by the sheer number of people asking to be rushed through content, instead of doing the content over again themselves. Add to that decades of scientific research on satisfaction, which support what I said above.

            Then, there is the issue of playing style variety. Increasing the negative consequences of a poor choice (such as making the choice permanent and forcing the player to re-roll) simply makes players more risk-averse and more prone to browsing the forums for pre-made solutions rather than experimenting themselves. Please read any scientific article on innovative company cultures.

            Since you’re fond of analogies, here’s one for you: Google allows its engineers to work 20% of their time on projects not related to their core business. That is, they give the freedom to engineers to work on things that are meaningful and interesting to them without worrying that they will be penalized, and that generated a lot of their innovations. The engineers’ satisfaction comes from seeing their ideas being implemented in the next Google products.

            In D3, players have the choice of testing and trying skill combinations without worrying about having to reroll the entire character if they make a mistake. The enjoyment comes from discovering what build you like most and from beating the game at higher difficulty levels or, alternatively, being very successful in PvP. 

          • @Damnatius
             
            You’ve made a thoughtful, reasoned collection of points. I salute you. I believe that it serves to illustrate that there are advantages to your presumable preference. In spite of those advantages, there are still, in my opinion, a plethora of disadvantages which yet outweigh them.
             
            You’re arguing the advantages, I’m arguing the disadvantages. Obviously there are merits, just like there are merits to the one night stand. Quite a few, actually. In spite of them, I still think it’s simply not as good as the alternative.
             
            Call it my inability to counter your most excellent thrusts, but I haven’t the interest to debate the matter further. I added a little jab to that last post because I took umbrage at the condescending phrasing you used in your initial reply. Let me make amends and say that you’re obviously not a stupid guy.

          • @saltcadet

            Your initial post was condescending too, albeit more subtly: you contrasted people who enjoy meaningful situations to people who just seek pleasure from more trivial situations. When you start by putting yourself in a superior position and looking down upon others who have different playing styles, expect a proportionate response from those respective others.

            I think research shows that, on average, people will prefer the model used in D3. However,  that doesn’t mean that some will actually not prefer other models, including a more restrictive one like you proposed (there is evidence of that right here on the forum). Of course, we’re talking without having even tried the game. We’ll see soon enough how fun it really is.

        • Of course red herring. It’s a waste of time to try to tackle the argument when people use terms which have no place in the context to support said arguments.
          However, after he explained what he meant, I did return to the argument. See above.

  15. I disliked automatic stats and pretty much everything Blizzard changed to help people put less brain effort in the game, but it wasn’t because I think permanent mistakes should be a feature in the game. Making this kind of mistake and having to reroll a char is stupid and this sadist philosophy is something that must die in every game from now on. That doesn’t mean I want players to be able to reroll their chars with a single mouse button, some time/cost must be included to prevent abuses, but rerolling an entire char is too much.
     
    I got a beta key for Path of Exile and one of the motives why I stopped playing is because the game don’t let you respec in an effective way and many of the players are sadists about respec’ing. They offer some expensive and time consuming way of respec’ing (1 skill point a time), which is not enough because at least until now the game don’t let you test a build to see how effective it is before you can spend all your skill points. Its easy to see why PoE needs some decent respec system after you see their humongous passive tree, which is beautiful, but players can’t appreciate it because those sadists keep whining in the ears of Grind Gear Games and won’t let them change the system.

    • Man, I have to admit, im not really liking this whole runes as unlocks thing.

      I hate having to go threw half or more of the game so i can actually play the game. IT is easily the worst thing about diablo II at the moment (espetially with level req hard to find equipment.)

      To all the people calling people who liked the way it was handled in dii sadists and somehow confused to their preferences (thanks corporate doublespeak). All i have to say, is who played Dii for 10+ years waiting for diablo III.

      It wasn’t the casuals compleigning that leveling new characters is some kind of secret burden imposed by the devils at blizzard.  And i know its entirely too late to do anything about it, I just really hope Diablo III isn’t a flash in the pan because the design committees didnt know their playerbase half as well as they thought they did. 

  16. “Bashiok: Personally I rather like it. It’s a restriction that feels rewarding when you get there, but doesn’t require anything but continued progression. Plus there’s going to be so many options unlocking while leveling I think it’ll make me probably try some things I otherwise wouldn’t have…”

     

    Personally I’m not so sure, I don’t like the fact I have to play, the way I don’t want to play until hell difficulty. In D2, we could be at end of normal difficulty and have the way or the feel for our play and strategy.
     

    Bash: “In the end, it wasn’t really customization, it was the illusion of customization that amounted to a narrow pathway with a sheer drop off on either side.”

    True, in D2 before 1.10 patch, I used to use a firewall sorc with frozen orb and chain lighting as a tough but viable (according to the way I felt) way in hell difficulty. After your patch, my way of playing had to be cookie cutter build or it was pointless as the skill point spread made the character unplayable, esp with the higher damage on enemies. This wasn’t because I didn’t min/max correctly nor read about the best way to play using a specific build.  
     

    Bash: “This discussion isn’t about the need of rules or not, it’s about placing them appropriately and using them wisely where they make sense… …The game is full of rules and limitations … it’s that punishment part we don’t really agree with nearly as much as some people. We have a gold cost for dying, which is actually fairly significant, but that’s about as far as we go for being punishing. What should happen is you should be tested and rewarded for your ability to kill enemies, get items, and not die. That makes sense to us, and for this game.” .

    I agree with this, but one thing that digs me is, making my choices based upon self-experimentation, then going up to a boss with my friends and saying, wait, just going back to town to respec for the fire resistant boss without any penalty. I like the freedom, but at the same time, I don’t feel responsible for the choices I made.

    All DIII has is a soft penalty of 15 seconds. May as well as remove that cooldown on skill changing, it doesn’t solve the issue of infinite respecing for anything and doesn’t say to players, make your decisions meaningful either, the rune customisation take care of the meaningful part.

    As a way to express this, in real life, its a pain to change career, esp if employers don’t say ‘yes’ all the time. In reality, I’m a web dev, lets say I wanted to become an environment engineer, that doesn’t mean I can just respec that easy, it will take time, a lot of time, not 15 seconds and not just time either, money, skill, experience and knowledge all have to come into play.

    Some careers are easier to change into than others, so how about this idea.   When you change skills/runes, you split the difference up to a maximum of five 5 levels, so if you change from a lower or higher skill the smaller or greater the level you lose, so you have to level up again. Rough idea, but it can work if the level changing requirement is above a certain level.
    Think that,s enough typing from me for one day lol.

  17. Ugh.. just reading that bash post on the leveling builds thread for the second time is making me even sicker than the first.

  18. i just had an idea. why are they locking the specific runes to levels. maybe if they would let us choose which rune to get at each time at set levels for each skill then that would lead to a more personal leveling experience.

  19. People who want “permanent decisions” on their RPG characters aren’t masochists, it’s an INVESTMENT that gives them pride in being able to make choices that solidify what they want the character to be. It gives them a sense of unique IDENTITY, which is more important than anything else in a role-playing game.

    This (utter lack of permanent choices in D3 character building) kills the RPG. 

    • Agreed. 

      What I believe the game boils down to is that “What if?” sense.

      What if I had a better weapon or fireball, that last room would have exploded twice as fast… or what if I’d allocated X points into Y, or done this or that…

      Having (mostly) everything at your finger-tips essentially removes that, for me anyway. 

        

  20. Honestly I was initially in favor of a more permanent system, but now I feel like they’re probably doing us a favor here. Seeing how hard they’re trying to defend their new philosophy regarding this aspect of RPGs leads me to believe they’ll be doing a lot of tweaking post-release. 
     
    This direction they’ve taken certainly killed off the last bit of incentive I had to reroll a class I’ve already maxed out, but the sort of build freedom we have as a result will be nice to have once Blizz starts “breaking” builds on a regular basis.
     

  21. First I’d like to set the record straight.  The RPG fans don’t ask for permanence in the form of ‘you must reroll your character if you screw up’.  That is simply poor design.  What we ask for is meaningful decisions.  You know, like the ones Jay Wilson promised and the ones inherent to any RPG.  They’ve all been stripped from the game with the new skill system.

    Yes, permanent decisions are meaning decisions but not all meaningful decisions are necessarily permanent.

    It is entirely possible to give the player the flexibility to respec or change their character around while still providing the incentive to really think about their character and invest in their preferred play style. Instead everyone can just choose the flavor of the minute through 15 second delays between any and every build in the game and all investment into your choices is gone.

    The problem is that Blizzard has removed the RPG from what has been a traditionally ARPG series.  Now Diablo 3 is just a hack-n-slash action game which is contrary to what many fans were expecting from the game.  Blizzard has taken something great and dulled it down to the most simplistic form which has no soul to it.  It might draw in crowds of the simple-minded who like brainless games but it won’t inspire that love and appreciation that the former games in the series did.  That magic of building your character has now been replaced by the driving of a generic doll that is no longer a representation of your creativity but instead is a duplicate of the millions like it.

    I know that some people don’t care for this level of thought or investment, but for many this is a serious blow to the game and I’d like that you’d at least recognize this as an undesirable loss even if it doesn’t mean much to you. We’re also not asking that you make any sacrifices for us to be satisfied, only an optional way in which RPG fans may invest in their character in some meaningful way.

    • ..That magic of building your character has now been replaced by the driving of a generic doll that is no longer a representation of your creativity but instead is a duplicate of the millions like it…
       
      So, care to share with us your uniqeu D2 build that wasn’t just a duplicate of a million other hammerdin, blizzard sorc etc?

      • I’ve played more than a hundred D2 characters.  Very few were duplicates. Many were unique builds that you won’t find listed on a general character build guide.  I’ve built characters around just about every skill, from blaze and charged bolt or glacial spike, plague javelin and freezing arrow, phoenix strike, frenzy and leap attack, curse support, and many others.  I’ve built characters that I’ve never encountered elsewhere in online play and others that were only rarely encountered.

        I never actually played a hammerdin partly for not liking the style itself and partly because it was so common it didn’t feel fun to be such a blatant cookie-cutter because it had no personal touch about it.  It just isn’t fun when you aren’t the one actually making the decisions. 

        • I feel you bro.  I don´t have sex anymore because you know, it’s so mainstream!  How are you supposed to enjoy something everyone and their mothers do!!  Don’t get me started about eating food…
           
          /puts his hipster glasses

    • “Now Diablo 3 is just a hack-n-slash action game which is contrary to what many fans were expecting from the game.”
       
      … Diablo has ALWAYS just been a hack n slash action game >< There has never been any role playing in either of the two predecessors. There was character development, yes; but that is also true of most shooters. You have never been able to make decisions which affected the game world in any way; the only way your decisions could affect the game was your success in battle.
       
      I think there are pros and cons in the D3 skill system, but they have nothing to do with the letters "RPG" :p

  22.  
     You know, the one question worthy of discussion seems to be ignored by everyone in these here comments…
     
     Restricting runes by level is annoying, and i think we all can agree that it would be better if we where allowed to choose which rune we get first…
     
     
     

    • Completely agree with you on this point. Respec gives us choices, but then we’re restricted on the runes we can use leveling up. No reason behind the change (before when runes dropped it was possible to choose any combination, albeit through grinding/luck). Bashiok “likes the change”. Good thing he’s not a game developer then. I don’t think the game will be horrible because of this change, but it is still a huge loss of customization.

      As for respec, I don’t think the idea is a bad one, I’m just worried about the execution of it. If the game ends up swallowing permanent builds whole, because I just have to respec when I go into a different area, then it’s not achieving what’s it’s supposed to. It probably won’t turn out this way but it’s not been refuted either.

      Most people are talking about the philosophy of having choice versus having restrictions, which seems pointless. The good choices let you customize your build, while the bad ones force you to play in a way you don’t want to. Just because respec appears to give players choices, doesn’t mean it won’t restrict players in some way also. But Bashiok probably doesn’t know anything about that. 

  23. i think too many people sit every day on these forums…(AND i meen bouth sides arguing )
    ….i am an honest man… (my gosh I Really am 🙂   i will wait for the game when it comes out,
    play it, and then decide if its good or not…in my opinion if the game is bad i will say it…if not……
    good for me (because i spent money on it).
    my point is to many people are right and wrong….its a f****** game people….
    for to many years have the compjuters clouded our minds and rage…
    go out,find a girlfriend,train your body or mind,help somebody…..
    …BE a F****** SUPERSAYAN::::::::::::::

    • The thing is that such big ramifications can’t be corrected easily post-release.  If they royally screw up the game they can’t just wipe the whole system and start from scratch without flipping every upside down and causing chaos.  They have completely diverged from the original genre, that’s not something easily fixed in a patch so those of us who really care for the game want to make sure that it isn’t released in a broken state.  If we don’t speak out now then our words won’t do any good later.

      • you r totally right my friend (if i can call you that 😛 )
        but i get the feeling that only minor changes will be corected for our little hearts…
        thats how money hungry people act…thinking on people until you get big money….
        mine heart was being broken allready with some changes (in my opinion of a great game)
        its not that i dont love diablo….its that…umm..nevermind  🙂

  24. It’s not lost on me that Bash would argue for the value of impermanent adaptability…flip-flopping, if you will.  Are we sure he’s not secretly part of the design team?

  25. When respecs was introduced to D2 that was the best thing that ever happened to D2, there I said it!

  26. People who get lucky and pick the best build should be paid a premium in items found and sold on the RMAH because striking it rich only ever happens because you’re good.  

  27. The problem that I have with the removal of restrictions is that Blizz have completely half-arsed it. You can respec whenever you want because being locked in to skills isn’t fun…only there’s a cooldown for respecs. You don’t need to collect Scrolls of ID because they weren’t fun and just took up space…but you still need to click to ID things.  It seems to me that now instead of forcing you in to a single play style, Blizz is just making things inconvenient. If the goal is to allow people to experiment, why do we need a cool down at all? Or at least, why do we need a cool down in town?

     

  28. These discussions about permanence are so silly, mostly the same arguments parrotted over and over. People have different opinions, I don’t understand what many of you are hoping to achieve by trying to ridicule others for their opinion.
     
    Oh and I would like more permanence, I’m not going to explain why I have this opinion because I don’t want to fuel the neverending story where people disrespect eachother for their views on permanence.

  29. If you want punishment and permanence play Hardcore.  When you die you can languish in the real sense of punishment at the permanence of those consequences of calling it wrong.

    I like the idea of being able to pick and choose what, from my arsenal, I take into any given situation in the game.  I like that one set of skills, set in stone, won’t be optimum – I hope one size does not fit all and the game requires flexibility.

     

     

    • The last phrase in your post is probably one of the most important and most overlooked advantage of the D3 system. I hope more people read this when they complain about choice in D3. 

      This allows for more strategic thinking personalized to particular encounters, instead of being stuck being a hammer and treating everything as nails. 

  30. I really like this idea but I think 15 seconds is too short.
    What was wrong with the nephalem altar? They removed it because they wanted people to be able to test their new skills as they unlock them right then and there. But after that they stated the importance of needing to go back to town every so often, to create ebb and flow…So doesn’t the altar now make perfect sense?

  31. We’ll see how much staying power D3 has.  A lot of you seem to agree with the excessively casual choices Blizzard has been making lately, none of which have ever added anything but short term interest.  Cataclysm, for example, is not failing because it was “too hard”.  It’s failing because there’s no depth in the game.  No reason to play it long-term because it’s just so casual (heroic raids are only a tiny sliver of what SHOULD be a thriving ecosystem of challenging content, not all of which has to be from raiding).  I say this as a casual gamer myself who realizes that it’s not about eating the cheese; it’s about the maze you traverse to get there.

    tl;dr Casual gameplay is great in the short term.  It’s horrible for the long term. 

  32. Wow, does this fucking idiot of a Blue really not understand why restrictions and rules are necessary to make choices meaningful? And he talks about logical fallacies?
    His car analogy is fucking hilarious:
    “If I could, with the wave of a magic car wand, have any car in the world that I wanted, would that reduce the importance of the one I choose?”
    Yes, yes it would HUGELY reduce the importance of the one you choose, because you would be ignoring the one thing that is absolutely essential when actually making any consumer choice, and that is Price/Quality.
    Infact there isn’t even choice anymore, since he has a magic car wand that can get him any car in the world, ergo there isn’t a meaningful point to choose one and stick with it.

    • Meaningful choice: if I encounter a single, tough target, I use my hard hitting 1-target skills against it; if I encounter a mass of weak target, I use my AOE and control skills against them.

      Stupid choice: I am going to build my unique build called “MyFistsBrainsMuchDoesNotHas”. No matter what the encounter is, I will pick each target one at a time and hit it with the most damaging 1-target ability.

      • No no. That’s not meaningful choice. That’s called basic motor skill and not being horrifyingly stupid.

        As par the magic car wand analogy.

        Choosing between a boat or a car to drive on land is no choice at all. It’s about not being a moron.  ❗

        • Basic motor skill? Hm, ok, I’m just not going to comment on that…

          The choice is not as between car and boat for a land expedition, since both choices I described are possible and CAN work, as long as you have enough motivation (which, given how “meaningful” it is to use fists and not brains, I assume you have).

          The choice resembles more to using a high caliber rifle regardless of what you’re hunting. Or to wanting to drive a Ferrari regardless of whether you’re going on the dirt track or on the Autobahn.

          You know, we have a joke where I’m from: at the police academy they gave all cops an intelligence test. They had to push some wood pieces through holes of matching shape (triangle through triangle hole, etc). The results: 10% of cops were intelligent and the rest were strong and very strong! Take from it what you will…

  33. You know what. I’m done with this game.
    I rather spend 50 bucks on (2+ budget) games that aren’t made for retards. Just give everyone a magic wand that can get them any item they want in this game, and i’m sure half of the morons that have posted positively on this news post here wouldn’t see anything wrong with it.
    I just can’t take the mindboggling idiocy and shortsightedness of some people here anymore. I hope that in ten years time all newfag retards have grown bored with this influx of shitty facebook games, so that game developers are forced to once more make games for people that aren’t obviously braindead.
    Captcha reads: have fun. How fitting. Not that i would be in the least suprised to see this abortion of a game die in a matter of months.

  34. In all honesty.. I don’t understand these discussions about permanent skill selection etc.  If you think making the right skill choices is important and should be more meaningful.. play hardcore. Make a wrong choice? get punished by losing your character. Meaningful enough for you??  Playing softcore is playing with godmode on, why would anything be meaning full if you can’t even die in the first place? It just takes longer to win the fight on softcore.. thats it. Get over yourself please 
    I had accidently posted this in a reply to the wrong thread.. olol 😮

  35. Many players played D2 for so many years because the game was fun and they did not mind rerolling characters over and over. I’m not sure we can say D3 will be the same way, atleast not yet.

  36. “It has exactly the same character development choices it’s always had, so that clearly can’t be true.
    What’s changed? Well, let’s throw away ‘permanent choice’. I can argue against permanent choice and then you back down and say “No no, it doesn’t need to be permanent, just meaningful, like some price to respec”. So let’s focus on that…” 

    Notice how he has omitted mentioning as to how, exactly, the development choices remain in game.

    We get it Blizzard. You are now catering to casuals. Please don’t insult our intelligence by bullshitting us in this manner, because stating the development choices ARE ALL STILL THERE is an obvious lie.

    🙄  

    They keep emphasizing how back in Diablo 2, making the right choices were not actually rewarding: it was merely the illusion of being rewarding. People who made the wrong choices were, instead, penalized, so really, it was to be in the benefit of no one.

    This is akin to saying that having an education system in any country inherently flaw, as it is not meant to reward to educated by merely in-place to undermine the uneducated masses.

    But then again, Blizzard is blind to logic.

Comments are closed.