Blizzard Hears Paragon 2.0 Complaints

Most fans are excited about the Paragon 2.0 system coming soon™ to Diablo 3 and soon™ after that to the Diablo 3 Expansion. There are some Paragon 2.0 complaints though, centered on the way our current character experience will be folded into the new, account-wide Sharagon system. Two of them voiced on the forums today are worth comment

The new Paragon 2.0 will add the total paragon levels of all your characters. Well that’s great and all and I love this idea. But if you have 5 characters with an average of 50 paragon levels on each that will make your account paragon level 250. On the other hand, a player with 1 character with paragon level 100 will have an account paragon level of 100.

Is that fair? If I enjoy playing 1 or 2 characters I’ll suffer and be not ready for the expansion vs. someone who has 5 characters and end up being higher paragon account than me who played more and went through a lot to get to paragon 100. You call this justice?

Something has to be done that will make sure both type of players are rewarded equally. One idea I had was upon installing the expansion, we get a message saying “you have been given xxx paragon levels” if you only had 1 character with level 100 with tons of hours. These levels need to match the same player that had 5 characters at paragon level 50 each. This way when both players are ON and start playing the expansion, both are level 250 and even.
Grimiku: When the time comes we will be converting your total Paragon experience into the Paragon 2.0 system, as opposed to a direct level to level transfer. However, there are a lot of details about the transition that still need to be finalized before we’re ready to talk about them all. We definitely plan on talking more about it in the future, so keep an eye out for those updates.

The real irony is that the OP was half-correct, entirely by accident. Look at the mega table on the Paragon page in the wiki: P50 requires 2.1 billion experience. P100 requires 10.4 billion experience. Thus five Paragon 50s are actually quite close in total exp to one Paragon 100, though obviously very far from the Paragon 250 the OP suggests. (Not that there’s any reason to expect the Paragon 2.0 Sharagon exp amounts to equal the current Paragon level exp requirements.)

The actual halfway point from P1 to P100 comes around P78.5, with 5.2 billion experience in the bag. It’s fun to figure other approximations, too: it takes ten 10 Paragon 33s to equal the exp of one P100, and the exp to go from 90-100 is roughly equal to the exp required to go from P1 to P60. That last is something I’ve been thinking about lately, since my Monk just hit P90 and I’m kind of bored of grinding the same build and am thinking about playing some other classes for variety. Especially when I consider that I could build another char to P60, or 5 chars to P33, for the same exp it would take to get the Monk from P90 to P100!

The next petitioner knows how the system works, but he’s unhappy that any killing done by a P100 character won’t count towards the Sharagon total. Click through for his complaint, a cut-n-paste Blue reply, offer your opinion as to whether it’s a legit complaint, given how easily it can be worked around.

Assuming Lylirra’s post is true that means people like myself (and Moldran) get screwed for not blindly leveling characters to 60 (plus paragon). To be honest i have no interest in leveling other characters I’m not interested. I think we should just start at whatever paragon level is our highest, rather than combined across characters.

That or we can base it off how many monsters and elites we’ve killed on our account rather than actual experience ( at least at first ). IDK. I really don’t wanna re-roll new chars.

Grimiku: We plan on sharing more information in the coming weeks about Paragon 2.0, but not everything about it has been finalized. We’ll make sure that everyone’s concerns are brought up, though, and we’ll let you know more about how experience will transfer from the current system as soon as we’re able to.

So what about this issue? I’d imagine it’s a technical issue; the code was written so that P100 characters simply don’t gain exp, so it would require some kind of hotfix to keep count past P100, purely to accommodate the few players who keep playing their P100s. I imagine the programmers are busy on larger projects for D3X, so I wouldn’t hold my breath. Also, there’s quite an easy work around; just reroll the same class and pass all your P100’s gear down to the new char at level 60. They’ll lose some stats and MF/GF, but with the gear of a P100 they can surely level up quite quickly, and keep your exp rolling.

Is that a perfect solution? No, but it’s not exactly torture upon the tiny % of players so afflicted.

Tagged As: | Categories: Blue Posts, Ex-Blizzard, Experience, Paragon


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  2. People complaining about them not getting a small bit of XP towards an infinite level…?

    • it’s a good point, but I do agree with the complainers (even though it doesn’t affect me).

      Maybe do something with # of elites killed? That number keeps rolling after the XP bar hits the wall at 100.

      • This is not a proper solution because you get more elite kills on MP1 than you do on MP10 by virtue of less mob health. That way, you’re only rewarding those who played on a lower MP level, not necessarily amount of time spent in game.

  3. I just wanted to comment to say that I love the word ‘Sharagon’.

  4. The whole paragon thing probably wasn’t explained the best at the start, but as more information comes out, I’m understanding it better and better.
    There are a lot of details which still need to be address.
    I’ll just trust that, hopefully, they’ve thought of them all and we’ll get a clearer picture of how this all works in the coming months.

  5. Josh said in the presentation you can be paragorn 1200 if you want, now what if you are paragon 1200, there are 4 tabs, in another interview he said that every tab will have 4-6 properties, let say there are 4 in main and 6 in all other, making it 22 properties, with 50 points per property that is 1100 para points. What to do after that, and why should i as a wiz or dh put points into str (besides for diabloprogres bragging), with lvl70 gear those 250points in mainstat are anyways like nothing as we saw items with 400 and more mainstat.

    So many questions…. Time will tell

  6. This is a little off topic but I’ve been waiting for a thread to address the issue. Has anyone else noticed the sudden increase in botting since the announcement of paragon 2.0? My friends and I have reported dozens of botters and unfortunately they are still botting… It’s discouraging when I see people that have 5 paragon 100 characters because they have bots going 24/7!

  7. Hopefully we’ll get more specific detail at Blizzcon. I don’t quite understand how they’re going to make the whole thing scale so that points gained/distributed by high level Paragon gains count appropriately more than low level Paragon gains. At first blush the whole new system seems pretty complicated in regards to knowing for sure how the end results are going to affect the game overall. Changing a whole lot of stuff all at once often leads to undesired results. Honestly I never felt that the Paragon system needed a massive overhaul. I haven’t listened to every word of every interview, I wonder what the philosophy was that led them to conclude that it needed a complete make-over.

    As far as P100’s not somehow continuing to gain experience, I have no problem with that even in the new system, and I am one of those “minority” that absolutely keep a P100 as an active, useful character even though I play HC. Once I get a character back to P100 it will be my permanent key runner and Uber slayer. I can’t see the point in retiring a character over the fear of losing it, because once you’ve shelved it you’ve pretty must lost it anyway IMO.

    • The Paragon system seems like it was invented as a cure for the outcries from the community.

      Outcry: “With max level only being 60, this game doesn’t have enough of a level/exp grind!”

      Answer: “Hey, we present to you paragon. Keep grinding and gaining EXP!”

      Outcry: “With stats being automatically distributed per level, I don’t feel like I have any customer characterization!”

      Answer: “Hey, we present to you paragon. Now you can reassign your attributes all the time whenever you want as you gain more paragon points. Keep grinding and gaining EXP!”

      Outcry: Not yet voiced.

      Answer: Paragon system.

      • There are those who simply play for story, and dont care about getting paragons or going past normal. So what do those people get? There still needs to be customization options for that play style. So Paragons are hardly the end all be all answer. It’s not.

    • The paragon system is currently designed to do at least these two important things:

      – Give players a sense of progression as they level 1-100 levels again.
      – Slowly but surely decrease the gap between rich and poor by decreasing Magic Find discrepancy between players.

      When the add-on lands, I imagine the planned goals shift to:

      – Decreasing Magic Find discrepancy between players much faster (e.g. reaching paragon 100 will be much easier after which MF is no longer a bonus at paragon level)
      – Decreasing Magic Find discrepancy by giving any account with paragon 100 maximum MF to all characters in that account (shared paragon levels should probably have been there from the start.)
      – Give players a sense of progression as they level 100-infinity levels again.
      – Add some amount of customization and uniqueness (uniqueity? uniqueism?) to each character (unless the customization options are also shared and not permanent, which I don’t imagine)

  8. Meh,

    I’m still thinking they will be adding a ladder league in which I will for sure be taking a part of, mainly for the fresh virgin economy. So grinding paragon levels in a league I won’t be playing in is a waste of time to me.

  9. Here’s my (not so) elegant fix:

    Cap it. The conversion from Paragon 1.0 to 2.0 should simply be capped at level 100 and it should transfer by level. That means, if you have a max paragon level character right now, you’ll have one as high as can possibly be in the conversion. If you don’t, you won’t be “that far” behind someone who does.

    How is this fair to those that grinded out multiple 100s? Give them a Feat of Strength. They chose to play other characters and explore other classes or multiple iterations of their favorite class. That’s an achievement. But, that doesn’t mean you’re any better or special than the guy who wanted to play one class and then grind gear based on the benefits of being max level.

    This way, everyone can enter the new system on a somewhat even playing field without feeling terribly upset by the conversion and those that went above and beyond the call of one Paragon 100 character will also receive recognition. Maybe the feat of strength comes with some cool cosmetic item like wings or something.

  10. As of now, Paragon looks like the least interesting, worst thing the expansion is offering. Instead of reigning in the rampant critical hit/critical damage/attack speed/main stat percentage boosts, they’re doubling down on it. Strength to gear, Dex to block, rest in Vit is back again, only this time you have a few more blips on the flow chart to check off. Oh, and they’re keeping Magic Find, to boot. Instead of redoing gems better, redoing main stats/off stats, and fixing the math, they’re just giving everyone the ability to go look up a spreadsheet/guide and click buttons.

    At some point, they need to change the paradigm from time to achievement/skill. If you make the game better for bots, more bots are going to play it. Stop making more grinds.

    • They had a decision to make:
      1. Completely overhaul the game systems in D3X, which means they wouldn’t be able to back-port it to D3 without destroying existing characters/economy/RMAH
      2. Try and build a new structure on the existing foundation, while shoring it up at the same time. Back-port parts of this new structure to D3.

      Evidently they went for #2. We can pretty much blame RMAH for why #1 wasn’t really on the table to begin with.

      • A) There’s a disclaimer when you use the RMAH that all stats are subject to change for balance reasons. They did the IAS nerf (and while it was painful and everyone flipped out, it was necessary).
        B) Raising the level cap to 70 already makes everything you’d buy on the RMAH today utterly worthless. Overhauling the game doesn’t change this fact. In fact, if they did a GOOD overhaul, it makes the RMAH more viable once the expansion hits. More types of gear, more types of stats are good, more demand for lots of stuff instead of the one helm, two rings, etc, we have now.
        C) Handing out pure power cheese (mainly crit damage and MF) makes the RMAH really lackluster. Yes, you need to nerf the RMAH, that’s a very worthy goal. But you don’t need to make grinding/brain dead manual stats the alternative. You make crafting, gems, and special events (like loot runs) more rewarding. You do more Hellfire ring style events and other non-grind/non-robot friendly gameplay more appealing.

        Paragon, and the rewards of Paragon, is basically a giant, blinking neon sign that says “Bot Me! Bot Me Hard!” Only fitting that they’re bringing back Blessed Hammer.

        • “A) There’s a disclaimer when you use the RMAH that all stats are subject to change for balance reasons.”

          Yes. But. That’s there to remove legal liability, it doesn’t mean that just because they have the option to make changes in a certain fashion, that they always will make changes in that fashion. It just means if they need to use it for some reason, they can, not that they will routinely use it. For example if there was a particular bugged or exploitable item they could change that one as a one-off.

          “They did the IAS nerf (and while it was painful and everyone flipped out, it was necessary).”

          Yes, and I believe in a blue post a few months afterwards they said that they most likely wouldn’t make changes like that again in the future because of what they learned (how bad everyone reacted). And we can see that they didn’t, when they made the legendary changes: all existing legendaries stayed exactly the same, and new ones dropped with the new mods. It would have been possible in most cases to retrofit the stat changes back to already-found legendaries, but they didn’t. We now have those silly legacy sets to deal with because of that change.

  11. There were people who had grind’d hours and hours before paragon was introduced, they didn’t immediately get 10, 20 or 50 paragon levels.
    Why would it work differently with Sharagon?
    Build it and they will complain…

  12. I think the 2nd guy stated a simple solution. Have the sharagon levels start at your highest level, rather than the accumulated total.

    Either that or just flat out reset the Paragon levels and have everyone at P0 when the patch hits. Oh I’d be getting an umbrella for when the shit hits the fan on that one though lol!

  13. Actually, has it occurred to anyone that when the patch hits and the highest level gets bumped up from level 60 to 70, that paragon levels wont exist until level 70? We’ll probably go from L60P30 to L60 until we hit level 70 and then it will go to L70P30 or L70P0, depending on whether they reset the paragons or preserve them.

    • They’ve said new characters get paragon points right from level 1. I’d be astonished if that were the case but imported L60s had to wait.

  14. Man, all I can say is, “WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!”…I think that’s a silly thing to complain about. That’s just not seeing the forest for the trees.

  15. How is the Paragon system going to work on the console version? From day 1 is it going to be Sharagon or are they going to go with the old version first? It appears the console is going to release with Loot 2.0 from the get go. I’m curious.

  16. *sigh* Paragon was a weird, badly planned, band-aid fix anyway, It was certain that it would create complications on expansions or game systems revisions. Just as Inferno max level 60 now shifting to 70 is going to raise questions as well.

    The way they are scrambling and tripping around with those systems shows how badly planned this game was…

  17. haha I knew it,ppl with just one char would start bitching about it…

    if a player has 10 paragon 100 chars, he obviosly would be rewarded for the time and effort of it,

    we all have the same choices, we can play one character now,and bitch over it,or just do like every1 does now,and that is to bring 10 charactrers to paragon 100,we all have the same choices so pls,…dont bitch

  18. QUOTE

    *sigh* Paragon was a weird, badly planned, band-aid fix anyway, It was certain that it would create complications on expansions or game systems revisions. Just as Inferno max level 60 now shifting to 70 is going to raise questions as well.
    The way they are scrambling and tripping around with those systems shows how badly planned this game was...

    To be fair WoW is very similar to this, band-aids on top of band-aids on top of band-aids. It’s just a natural result of their iterative design. It’s really not good for people with OCD tendencies like me, it quickly gets in the way of immersion.

  19. I do not see much complication with : sharagon level = level obtained by summing paragon exp of all characters and all your characters get access the these points but starting adding sharagon experience only after having reached lvl 70.

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