Blizzard with more on Goodie Bags and Legendary Drops


Blizzard added a few more details to the thread about legendary item drop rates and changing goodie bag rewards that Xanth newsed up yesterday:

What about the bug involved with opening caches in a higher difficulty?
Nevalistis: This should have already been resolved. Changing difficulty should have no effect on the contents of a cache when it is opened. Contents are set when the Cache is acquired.

Also one last question, the Legendaries that can be acquired by gambling… are they restricted by difficulty? Or can gambling not even produce a torment level Legendary?
Need to double check on some info regarding this one. I’ll get back to you when I find out more. =)

Legendary plans aside, and this is all anecdotal evidence from my experience and that of the 5-6 people I regularly play with, we get on average about 1 legendary item from 10 bounty bags. We farm 10 bags on normal or hard and then open them on T6. In contrast, we have farmed many hundreds of rift bags between us and we’ve seen a grand total of 1 legendary item drop from them.
Nevalistis: I actually quite enjoy anecdotal evidence, because these kinds of situations lead credence to player experience, especially if multiple players are reporting similar results.

If others have conducted similar experiments, I’d be very interested in hearing your results!

Torment difficulty rewards.

Torment difficulty rewards.

A couple of details some people may not be aware of. There are higher quality legendary items that only drop on Torment+ difficulty. Also, Imperial gems (higher level than Marquise) may drop on Torment, along with the generally higher experience and gold and legendary drop rates.

That last matches my experience, with legendaries found from Horadric Bags rewarded by Tyrael for completing all bounties in an act, but not from Horadric Bags rewarded for killing Nephalem Rift guardians. The previous update said they were removing goodie bag rewards for Nephalem Rift guardians and moving that loot explosion to the time/place of the Guardian’s death, which is cool, but they still need to up the legendary drop potential there, or Rifts will remain much less rewarding (though more varied and fun) than the quicker/easier Bounties.

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  1. Am I the only one who is dreading the Bounty treadmill? It’s like the old Pindle grinds, only spread around the map. Port, kill, port, kill, port, turn in, repeat. Rifts need to be the goal; they should be the most rewarding things in the game. Of course, they need to add more objectives/goals for Rifts/the rest of the game; escorts, scavenger hunts, crumbling vault, red rover, etc. “Kill as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible” gets old if that’s the only thing you can do in the game.

    (oh, and PvP. FFS, PvP!)

  2. Bounties should be the quick gampelay and mostly serve as a leadup to Rifts tbh. Not the end-goal in itself, which it kinda sounds like now.

    Could be nice if Rifts could maybe lead to Elite Rifts or something, then making Rifts the longer type of gameplay, more challenging, but also more rewarding.

  3. The article actually has a mistake: Imperial gems start dropping at lvl 61 or higher in Master, not Torment. This I see as being fairly useless now, as Master is the highest difficulty that non-RoS players can play, but since non-RoS players can’t get to lvl 70 (and, thus, cannot ever reach lvl 61) the bonus is functionally useless unless you have RoS. Meanwhile, Torment gives you a doubled chance for legendaries/sets to drop. I think that it would be much better design if Master gave you the doubled leg/set chance and Torment let Imperial gems drop. Imperial gems are only for lvl 61+ anyway, so even if they could drop on PTR, you couldn’t use them unless you could get to Torment. Meanwhile, everyone uses legs/sets, so that bonus is always useful. Right now, unless you’re levelling or farming for paragon (which takes a really long time) Master provides no tangible benefits over Normal other than fun value. I think the two benefits should be switched around.

    Also, with regards to Rift Bosses, I think that they should always be Mini-Bosses or Act Bosses, instead of being glorified champion/elite mobs that you only fight one of. In order to make these bosses hard enough to be worthy of being Rift Guardians (since most Mini/Act Bosses are weak compared to champs/elites) I’d give each Rift Guardian one champ/elite affix at random in addition to whatever that boss does. That way, it would be harder than just fighting a boss, while not being so brutal as to be unfair.

    In addition, I think that there should be ‘alternate win conditions’ for Rifts in addition to simply filling the bar and killing the boss. I’ve recently been playing a lot of the fantastic game “The Binding of Isaac,” and I was thinking that something like the curses from Isaac could benefit Rifts nicely. For those who haven’t played BoI, at the beginning of each floor, the floor can spawn with one of three curses: Curse of Darkness, Curse of the Lost, or Curse of the Labyrinth. Curse of Darkness removes the map, Curse of the Lost makes the floor bigger, and Curse of the Labyrinth combines the current floor and the next one into one super-floor, with two boss fights one-after-the-other at the end. I think that Rifts would be a lot more interesting if it had similarly random extra conditions that changed how you played. For example, maybe on one floor, only Undead enemies counted towards the bar, but killing other enemies awarded double XP. For another example, similar to the Curse of the Labyrinth, when you finish the Rift, you have to fight two bosses at the same time instead of one; however, these bosses have a doubled chance of dropping legs/sets. A final, exceptionally rare example (the game’s equivalent of a legendary Rift if Rifts could have quality) would be to have every 10 enemies killed in the Rift increase your MF by 1% for the duration of the Rift, giving you much more loot and a higher chance of getting legs/sets. I think that having maybe 5 or 10 different conditions that might roll when you create a Rift would make Rifts much more unpredictable and fun to play. You’d never know what you got beforehand, and you might get really lucky and get the Rift that pays out exceptionally well.

    • Rifts with random modifiers would be cool. This system from BoI sounds very similar to what PoE does with maps. They are essentially Rift Keystones with random affixes, like every other item. I think there’s two ways to implement this in D3:

      1) Every time you open a Rift you get random modifiers. This would solve the overabundance of Keystones I saw in streams, because people would likely keep rerolling them.

      2) Change Keystones into “standard” items that may spawn with Keystone specific affixes, describing how the map will be changed. This would be exactly PoE’s system. Make these Keystones tradable as well.

      • Not sure what the issues would be, but I like the sound of option 2.

      • Right away, I’ve got to point out a problem with your option #1: currently, you can only open a Rift after you’ve killed the Rift Guardian in the one you already have. Thus, there would still be an overabundance of Keystones, since you couldn’t reroll the modifier until you’d already completed the one you had.

        As for option #2, it would be fine with me, I just don’t want to see the idea go the way PoE did maps. One of the major complaints I hear from the PoE forums is that people have to farm endlessly to get maps, and the map drop rate is crappy. I don’t mind the idea as long as Keystones still drop quite frequently; if I only got one Keystone per hour, and I had to jump through hoops to make it have the affixes I wanted, then I’d probably lose interest simply because it was too much of a hassle.

        As for how BoI does these random map mods vs. how PoE does it, I can’t really say, since I never played a PoE character past lvl 50. I would guess, though, that the major difference is that in PoE, map-making is supposed to be a big sidequest, what with rerolling the maps to suit your personal tastes, trying to get certain mods on it to create the level that you want. In BoI, on the other hand, the Curses are usually less overt changes, and you can’t choose them.

        I think that for me, personally, I’d rather have a Keystone system that’s more like BoI’s version, rather than PoE’s. Primarily, I feel this way because I like the element of surprise, and also I like that I’m not always playing a changed run; sometimes it’s just a vanilla run. With a system more like PoE’s maps, you would never just play a Rift again; you’d find the kind of Rift you thought was most profitable, and just run that one over and over. People would quickly determine which Rifts were the most profitable, then those Keystones would become the most expensive for trade. Furthermore, since so little else in the game is tradeable anymore, the ‘less profitable’ Keystones would probably be mostly worthless, making the Keystones more like PoE’s ‘grind for hours until you’ve got a good map, or until you have items to trade for one.’

        Honestly, you’ve put in two ways to make the idea work, but the same way that BoI does it would also work here. Simply put, make Rifts have a 50% chance of spawning with a special objective. The common objectives can have a fairly high chance to spawn, say maybe 1/4. The really rare ‘legendary’ objective(s) can have a low chance, maybe 1/10 or 1/15, to make them feel special.

        The other thing that my system allows for, which neither of your systems necessarily do, is changing affixes. My system (taken from BoI, which also works like this) works on a floor-by-floor basis: each time you enter a Rift, or go down a floor, the game rolls to see if you have a Curse, and if you do, it rolls to see which one you get. This allows for the modifiers to change constantly and fluidly, so that players have to modify their goals on the fly.

        Ultimately, my main goal with the system idea is to have the extra modifiers feel special and interesting. You should see them enough to not be surprised, but you shouldn’t see them all the time, and I definitely think that players should not be able to choose what affixes spawn. Diablo’s players have shown that they will play the most efficient way, even if it isn’t fun or interesting: Spin-to-Win Barb and perma-Archon are a testament to that (and yes, as a Wizard, I fully incriminate myself in this category). If the affixes are tradeable and up for players to choose from, it stops being special, and just becomes another place to butt your head against the RNG looking for the modifier that everyone agrees is ‘best.’

        I hope I’ve explained my point well. As always, you’re free to disagree with me, and since this is, after all, The Internet, undoubtedly many people will. I look forward to hearing your comments!

        • Difficult to has a strong opinion without a beta key. However, your arguments seem sound and I tend to agree with you and prefer BoI’s maps with balanced curses. I’d like to see a curse where you have to kill all the monsters to have the boss appear…

          • To be honest, I don’t really know why Blizzard hasn’t made the RoS beta an open beta. Unlike the D3V beta, they aren’t concealing information, and it has nothing to do with required data/software, as the PTR and the RoS beta are running on the same client. There should be no crash if everyone starts playing RoS, because the same people will be on anyways. Overall, I’m just confused why the beta didn’t get opened up at all. Unlike the previous betas, there just doesn’t seem to be any great reason not to open it up.

          • (replying to DoE but can’t directly)

            I have a cynical feeling that Blizzard has not made the RoS beta public because they actually want people to pay for content.

            I don’t remember when the beta started, but if it was December, that would give people basically 4 months to play almost all of RoS, get bored for the same reasons they got bored of D3, and then not bother buying the expansion. This way, they manage to create hype by allowing a small amount of folks access, as well as streamers/fan site folks/etc., but the unwashed masses generally have to pay to play.

            Basically, the RoS beta is not a “wet your whistle” experience but almost the entirety of the cow’s milk. While both the expansion’s content (you can’t exactly “gate” beta access to adventure mode or new gear types/etc.) and the need for more detailed feedback that their own internal testers can’t provide basically force Blizzard into creating a beta that features nearly all of the expansion content, I’m guessing that they’re not expanding the list of beta participants specifically for this purpose.

          • @Ivan – that makes a lot of sense and is really pretty darn reasonable. It’d be silly to ask people to pay for something if everyone already had the chance to play 98% of it for free.

        • I don’t have anything about BoI’s system. I simply didn’t include it on my list because you already made a good case for it. 🙂

          I didn’t know that Rift can’t be instantly rerolled, although I’d imagine you can do it by exiting and starting another game. Still, for my option #1, it would be ideal if this wouldn’t be necessary.

          As for #2, yeah, I don’t want PoE’s map drop rate either, the current Keystone drop rate would be fine. As a slight addition, it would be cool if one chose modifiers on the Keystones could be rerolled with Enchanting. I guess I made it obvious that I really like how PoE handled the endgame. It’s a shame that I don’t like the game in general. 🙂

          • Yeah, um, that would do it. Not sure why I didn’t think of re-entering game to reroll the Rift. It still might not be possible, though, since the game keeps track of certain things through each session, so it might keep track of the Rifts too. If you’ve got RoS beta, you should go check on that.

            Now, to derail the topic a bit, PoE has a lot of great concepts, and none of them are done well, in my personal opinion. PoE’s item system has the potential to be varied and interesting, with a high degree of personal customization, but instead the only important rolls are ‘+life,’ ‘+resists,’ and ‘+damage on weapon,’ while the ‘personal customization’ is really, as Ivan E so eloquently put it a while back, “sustained RNG trolling.” The skill gem system has a lot of potential to create interesting builds, but this is hampered by desync, which makes any build that puts stress on the game engine worthless by default, since the lag is built into the game and your build will lag yourself to death. Furthermore, a specific subset of support gems are overpowered, pushing one skill’s damage so much that you don’t need to specialize in any other source of damage, and homogenizing builds quite a bit. The average set I see in PoE build guides are: added damage, Multistrike, MF (in two gem kinds) and, for projectile builds, lesser/greater multiple projectiions; people also tend to use a +damage aura. Because of how damage is calculated, non-magic builds can get over 20k damage just through high-level skill runes, no offensive passive points required. This leads to my complaint about the Passive Tree, which at first seems like an endless array of possible choices, but in fact will gimp you completely if you try o build any kind of damage, since damage is unnecessary. The best path through the Passive Tree is +life, +resists and all of the special passives you need.

            The uniques in PoE are as bad as D3V’s, except in most cases even worse, as D3V’s endgame legendaries are all mostly usable, if not interesting, while PoE’s are mostly crappy and uninteresting, with a few uniques that are truly unique, while still being useful. A few uniques, as I said, are key parts of builds, but most uniques are not that special, and many of them are quite weak. In addition, uniques are gated up, but not down. By this, I mean that you can only find high-level uniques in high-level areas, but you can find low-level uniques anywhere after the level they start spawning in. Add to that the terrible unique drop rate, and you have a game where getting a unique is a special moment, usually ruined a moment later when your unique is a useless low-level item with no build relevance.

            Finally, and perhaps, most damning, is that the game hides its mechanics, so that the midgame and the endgame feel completely different from the early game. First, the evasion mechanic: the in-game description straight up lies about what it does. Evasion usually gives you a percentage chance to avoid an attack, but in PoE, the game keeps track of the first evasion roll and guarantees an enemy a hit based on the percentage (e.g. say you have 33% evade. An enemy attacks you and misses: the game sees that 33%, says that you have a 1/3 chance to be hit and the enemy missed, so out of the next 2 attacks, one will guaranteed miss, and one will guaranteed hit, then for the next 3 attacks, 1 will hit and two will miss). This means that you cannot build a Fragile Speedster: unless you can get to 90+% chance to evade (which I believe is impossible) then any evasion build still needs to stack health to deal with guaranteed hits. The PoE wiki tells you that, but nowhere in the game is this important detail mentioned. I lost my first character to this, which feels like BS, especially since there was a forum post detailing a powerful endgame build that was exactly the same as my build, just with more health.

            The next big problem is the difficulty curve, which ties in to my health problems above. There is a big difficulty spike in Cruel (Nightmare) Act III; at that point the game becomes more than twice as difficult. This is a problem to me, as it feels incongruous with the rest of the game. My first character specialized in attack speed and lifesteal, with 4 attacks-per-second and 35% lifesteal. Before Cruel Act III I steamrolled the game, never dying once, with barely more than base health; as soon as I got to Cruel Act III, it took me 10 or more deaths to clear each area and I never got XP, leading me to end the character. I don’t necessarily mind that you need health and can’t really play a squishy character (D3 is mostly the same), but if that’s the case, you shouldn’t make it so that the first half is easy, and then at some arbitrary point, everything just kills you. Basically, if building health is important (which in PoE it is), then the game should increase damage throughout the early game to tell players ‘hey, health is important,’ rather than keeping damage progression mostly linear up until a certain point, at which enemy damage is just doubled.

            The last big problem is the prevalence of instant kills at the endgame, especially from the source it comes from (Reflect Damage/Reflect Elemental Damage). The RD mod itself is not a problem, but for most of the early/mid game (I got as high as Act I Hell before quitting) RD/RED is a meaningless enemy mod. It spawns all the way down, but you don’t do enough damage to make it count, so the damage from it is negligible. However, I’ve heard that at the endgame, where you’re doing 20k-50k DPS, a single hit of the wrong kind on RD/RED enemies will one-shot you. Again, this is not necessarily a bad mechanic (though one-shots are usually problematic), but the fact that it only happens at the late-game, and is completely meaningless in early and mid game, makes me feel that it is a badly made mechanic.

            In general, all of the mechanics I’ve listed are things that you can find out by checking the wiki, but not by checking in-game (before you get to it and it starts killing you, anyway). I don’t really mind the idea that you can screw up your build, but if I’m going to reroll cause I screwed up my build, let it be because I planned badly and made a mistake, not because the game’s core mechanics were hidden from me. Having the game resort to killing my builds through in-game misinformation leaves a bad taste in my mouth; that was the main reason why I quit.

            Sorry for the rant, it was really off-topic. I just am really disappointed in PoE, since when I found out about PoE (about 4 months ago) it looked like it was all the answer to D3’s problems that I wanted. But after playing for about a month, all of the problems I listed above were made obvious, and the game stopped being fun to play at all. None of the problems I listed were found naturally in the game’s progression; they were only found after playing through to a certain point, at which the game dropped the deception and made things clear. With D3, I was disappointed, but at least I had followed the game for years and could see what parts looked disappointing. With PoE, everything becoming bad felt really sudden and jarring, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Sorry again for the rant; it was really, really OT.

  4. QUOTE

    Am I the only one who is dreading the Bounty treadmill? It's like the old Pindle grinds, only spread around the map. Port, kill, port, kill, port, turn in, repeat. Rifts need to be the goal; they should be the most rewarding things in the game. Of course, they need to add more objectives/goals for Rifts/the rest of the game; escorts, scavenger hunts, crumbling vault, red rover, etc. "Kill as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible" gets old if that's the only thing you can do in the game.
    
    (oh, and PvP. FFS, PvP!)

    You are definitely not the only one that feels this way. I’m constantly checking Blue post updates to see if they are fixing the reward structure. I’ve always felt that if you need to do 5 bounties to get 1 rift keystone, they should make players eager to jump into a rift to get that awesome loot pinata. Others have given some good examples on how to change rifts up a bit to make it more interesting / challenging, but before they do that they need to make the reward structure more enticing.

    Rifts need to be the best way of getting gear since they are locked so to speak through the use of Rift Keystones.

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