Blizzard Defends Whirlwind’s Weakness, plus Condemned Bugs


Barbarian players still shocked by the recent nerf to Shard of Hate are speaking out about Whirlwind’s apparent lameness. “Alas,” says Blizzard, “working as intended.”

Whirlwind is toooooooo weak

Goats... about all WW can handle these days?

Goats… about all WW can handle these days?

blue, seriously ww as a fury spender is really not performing up to it standard at all. I did a few t2 run on ghom for timing, and result for ww is too dismay.

  • weapon throw is 10 sec
  • frenzy is 12 sec
  • cleave is 13 second
  • …and the godly ww is 24 seconds.
  • cmon blizz, buff ww! ww is barb signature move, and every 1 love to ww!

    Nevalistis: Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

    Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it’s designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it’s able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it’s (generally) a single-target skill.

    Damage is not the only factor of a skill that’s weighed when we’re considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability’s powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That’s part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

    We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you’re fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

    We’re keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. 🙂

    WW is not imo a huge issue but the fact that lightning/cold/non-fire builds all perform poorly and aren’t really good compared with fire.
    Nevalistis: This is actually a topic I’ve been meaning to post on for a while, but hadn’t found a good opportunity yet. Now’s as good a time as any, I suppose!

    When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there’s room for some additional adjustments. I don’t have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it’s likely you’ll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.

    It’s a valid point; that WW is meant as an AoE attack to hit lots of targets for moderate damage and will therefore not do so well against single targets. Except that the Wizard has something like seventeen skills that do more damage than Whirlwind, AND hit every single enemy on the screen at once. Sorry Barbs, but now you know how every other class felt about you guys being JW’s chosen race from like, June 2012 – February 2014.

    In other news, there’s an issue with the tooltip on a two-handed sword of use to Crusaders, though some Barb fan spins the Whirlwind issue into the middle of that debate as well.

    What did you do to my Blade of Prophecy?

    blade-of-prophecyYesterday when My condemn hits monster A,B,C,D,E then each of monster A,B,C,D,E will “cast” DiabloWikicondemn. I just log in now and find out that the additional condemn are limited to 2 explosion.

    What did you do?

    Lylirra: I’ve passed along your reports to our QA team (to see if what you’re describing is a possible bug) and our developers (to see if what you’re describing was an intended change that just didn’t get passed along to our team), as well to verify what exactly is functioning differently with the Blade of Prophecy (if anything at all, since it’s possible the item hasn’t actually changed in the last few days). I’m not sure I’ll be able to find out this information today, since most folks don’t begin their shifts until Monday, but hopefully we’ll be able to provide some clarity soon. Apologies for any confusion, and thanks for your reports. Hope you all enjoy the rest of your Sunday!

    please Lylirra , please for the love of everything thats holy pass along a message stating how much of a horrific state whirlwind for barbarians is , lightning just cannot do any damage
    Lylirra: Happy to pass on the feedback, but pretty sure Nevalistis already beat me to it. I know she documented quite a bit of feedback from the discussion she was keeping an eye on here.

    Note that the tuning pass she’s referencing refers to the reevaluation we always do after a game is launched (or a big patch has been released). We do a tuning pass before we ship and then after; this post-ship pass is to account for the wider net of data we get once the game has been played by a larger audience of players.

    Alright, folks. Here’s the follow up:

    Crusader Active Skill.

    Crusader Active Skill.

    Blade of Prophecy currently only procs two extra explosions of DiabloWikiCondemn, regardless of how many targets are Condemned while the weapon is equipped.

    This is intended functionality of the weapon, and has been since it was implemented. (This is really what I wanted to confirm.)

    No changes have been made to Blade of Prophecy since RoS shipped, and no known bugs are currently active with the weapon.

    Just as an FYI, I’ve already passed along the feedback regarding BoP’s tooltip and the relevant secondary affix being somewhat misleading/confusing. 🙂

    Looks at tooltip, looks at this statement.

    *Big explosions in brain at the cognitive dissonance.*
    Lylirra: When I passed along the feedback from earlier posts in this thread to the dev team, they’d agreed with the posts that the description is confusing and not really representative of the behavior of the proc, so it’s something they’d like to fix and just make much more clear to players. Since it’s a text change (and therefore hitting client side data), it’s not something we can hotfix, but we are looking to tackle with a future patch.

    I guess the Crusader is condemned to suffer?

    Comments

    You're not logged in. Register or login to post a comment.
    1. The problem with having WW performing so poorly against anything less than 4-5+ targets is that barbarians can’t afford to have more than one Fury spender , having one fury generator is nearly not optimal and fury regen without certain legendaries/sets is really bad , before I found my 3 piece IK to get the ancients with RoRG I used Warcry(50 Fury rune) + Avalance(Earthen Might Passive for 30 fury) + 2 Fury regen Passives and a Fury generator and was finding myself lacking in Fury , even after finding my IK set I can drop Fury Generator and the Earthen Might Passive and feel somewhat ok with Fury.

      So my bar is usually filled with Sprint(Mobility), a Warcry(Fury + Defense) , Avalanche or Battlerage(Damage) , Ancients(IK) or Berserker or Earthquake(EQ Set) set (Nuke) , Spender and Generator and my other 4 skills can’t be altered to have WW unless I get means to generator fury with Leap(EQ Set and Earthen Might) or Ancients(IK Set + Rune for Fury per hit on Ancients) , then drop generator for WW and have HoTA as main spender.

      • My only wish on WW is that they remove the 75% speed max. I cant do T5 and T6 using WW, but T4 is passable and if I ever find better swords or 2 more IK pieces T4 should become much easier. Most likely switch to fire rune with an IK setup as I think the ancients will generate plenty of fury.

        Anyways – More speed please for WW would be very useful if we cant have a bit more power. Push that one up the line for us please!

    2. Seems to me that those barbs are stuck in the old playstyle and refuse to move along with the evolutionary chain of gaming.

      Quit crying and move along !

      There is always the Bul Kathos blade set to dish out short bursts of WW as it should be.

      • Nobody is crying but when one of your main fury spenders is underperforming it should be buffed.

        Most barbs don’t play WW and I mostly play with Hota and Seismic Slam but when I am in a party of Wizards/Monks and everybody is rushing hota can feel slow and barely hits enough targets so I use WW if it is T1 or T2 and honestly it does bad damage when used without overpowered weapons like ThunderFury or the old Shard.

    3. For those people looking for something else to do with their Barb, they might want to visit the Hardcore forums. There are several really good builds just posted that work pretty damn good.

    4. ehm, not sure what exact torment level are we talking about, but I run couple t2 rifts yesterday with not very great group (not complaining, just didn’t feel some people very good geared/ready for t2 yet, or at least it was subpar to what i am used to see) and i was doing rather well (as in killing elites, etc.). ofc, not godly thing that i seen alkaizer run on stream, but at least as good as my cold spec i used before i tried unnerfed SoH…

      one last point, i am not using any primary skill, my source of fury is Reaper’s Wraps – it works pretty well.

      btw. for all SoH barbs out there – is it me, or is SoH still better than your average weapon with better dps? i found pretty good echoing fury, not talking odyn sun etc., i have not found it yet…

      captcha: slow down!

    5. There’s video proof of Condemn proccing more than twice. Yet another example of Blizzard lying instead of just coming out and saying they’re nerfing again.

      Also, WW has NEVER been good damage. Even when everyone was nominally a “WW Barb”, their actual offensive skills were Sprint and Overpower and Rend. If it weren’t for the need to ignore collision, and that gaining fury only extended Wrath if you weren’t full so you had to burn some it wouldn’t be used at all. All it was used for is burning excess fury. Now you have like 4 fury gen methods and are still starved. What excess?

      • “There’s video proof of Condemn proccing more than twice. Yet another example of Blizzard lying instead of just coming out and saying they’re nerfing again.”

        Sometimes the Blade of Prophecy does cast more than two additional Condemns but that’s very likely a bug because the vast majority of times you only get two additional Condemns, regardless of the number of enemies. I assume Lylirra or the QA team only did a short test and concluded that the Blade always works as intended (max 2 procs). I don’t know what causes it to sometimes chaincast Condemn like crazy, I couldn’t reproduce this effect reliably.

        • I did some testing with a blade and it hits all condemned targets every time. It didn’t limit to two ever that I saw. I logged in when I read this article to confirm and suddenly it’s just two about 95% of the time. Seems like the “bug” here is that the stealth nerf didn’t quite handle all cases.

    6. Pretty silly of the OP to be comparing generators with a spender that does aoe and ignores unit collision.

    7. What? WW is great. I love WW a ton when I get it RNGd for me on my Barb:

      Wind Shear means almost perma-WW. Blood Funnel gives crazy, ridiculous survivability. It has phenomenal AoE that you don’t need to aim, you can move through packs to hit dangerous stuff, it works super-well with LpFS because you don’t need discrete chunks of fury to use it, it works super-well with Overpower and Threatening Shout/War Cry, it’s great for LoH, and so on.

      Yes, it’s crappy for single-target fights, but those are a small chunk of the game. I love WW, it’s one of my favorite skills currently in the game, and this wasn’t even the case back when everyone was pooping tornadoes as their main form of play.

    8. WW is too weak and needs rebalance, and it isn’t the only skill. Hitting a “large” area for ~200% WD every second is about on par with blessed hammer, but blessed hammer has a bigger aoe. The issue is that other classes are dishing out 400-700% spenders. Sure they have a higher cost, but those classes are regening their resource fast enough that it ends up relatively equal. The proc coefficient is probably the worst aspect of WW. As others have said, you can’t afford 2 spenders really, especially in a lightning build, so you use frenzy for single target and WW for everything else, but WW’s proc coefficient is too low for 1-4 targets or so.

    9. Barbs don’t really have good, spammable AoE’s skills. I’ve played barb since the release of RoS and my main has never dished out as little damage as before. You don’t die yourself, but killing mobs takes forever. Compared to a wizard, playing a barb feels like playing a retarded little monkey that has to hop everywhere to hit monsters with a wooden stick.

    10. QUOTE

      "There’s video proof of Condemn proccing more than twice. Yet another example of Blizzard lying instead of just coming out and saying they’re nerfing again."
      
      Sometimes the Blade of Prophecy does cast more than two additional Condemns but that's very likely a bug because the vast majority of times you only get two additional Condemns, regardless of the number of enemies. I assume Lylirra or the QA team only did a short test and concluded that the Blade always works as intended (max 2 procs). I don't know what causes it to sometimes chaincast Condemn like crazy, I couldn't reproduce this effect reliably.

      It says “Condemned enemies also proc it”. Nothing about a max of 2. Until now. So yes, it’s a stealth nerf they’re now lying about.

      • Nope, it has been proccing 2 times ever since RoS was released. The Blade of Prophecy was actually the first Legendary I’ve found, so I’m 100% sure about this. There are only two issues they need to address:

        1) Incorrect proc description. It should state that it only procs two times.

        2) Sometimes it does proc more times. They should investigate and fix this.

    11. Since I haven’t had one yet, I understand the explanation that it usually procced 2x but occasionally procced more. As for this being a bug fix or nerf, it’s fine. The effect is incredibly powerful, and trippling the damage of condemned is better than most crusader build-changing legendaries in terms of damage gain.

    12. I think that Whirlwind should be upped to deal more damage, but I also think that those who cry about Barbarians dealing poor damage are simply refusing to try new builds. My friend plays Barbarian now, and he can easily do T1/2, and can passably do T3/4 (same with all my friends group except the Monk, who can do T5, just really slowly). In particular, his one-time burst AoE damage is insane, as he runs both Avalanche and Earthquake, and dropping both skills at the same time deals extreme burst damage (I’ve seen him near-instantly half-health a T1 Rift Guardian with that setup). Also, while I haven’t tested it myself, I have heard from him that the new Ancient Spear is very good.

      As for WW itself, I think it should probably do more damage than it does. ~200% is pretty weak, considering that most other classes are dealing a lot more than that (my Wizard deals 375% cold damage to melee/mid-range guys for less cost than WW). I think that Blizzard should up the damage on WW, but at the same time, it’s not too hard to go infinite with WW either, so it probably shouldn’t be upped too much. ~250-260% should be good enough.

      Finally, Barbarian does seem to have elemental damage issues. A lot more of his skills should deal elemental damage, since a lot of power comes from stacking up the elemental damage stat.

      • “A lot more of his skills should deal elemental damage, since a lot of power comes from stacking up the elemental damage stat.”

        I don’t understand this part. What do you mean more skills should do elemental damage? All skills have an element. Physical is an element as well, so there are bonuses to all types of skills.

        If I remember correctly most Barb skills are Physical or Fire. Of course often it’s worth boosting Fire because of the resource reduction of Cindercoat, but you can get 100%+ damage bonuses to other elements as well, including Physical.

        If you mean that the element balance of skills is off then you’re right, but I think it’s fine that the classes can’t specialize on elements to the same degree because of this.

    13. Well hot damn, never knew WW was that useless.

      The test isn’t misleading in the slightest blue idiot.

      It does half the damage of frenzy… wtf, frenzy gens fury, ww depletes it, hilarious blizzard… very funny

      ONLY way for barb to have some success in this game is Raekor’s + Bouldertoss with Call of the ancients / Earthquake barb with ot without Call of the ancients… BUILD DIVERSITY HAHAHAAH a sad joke

      • Frenzy is a single target attack, it’s always going to do more damage (to a single target) than an AoE (unless you missed Flux’s comments in the article).

    14. But fixes:

      -Blade of Prophecy once again has a chance to roll Demon Hunter skill bonuses.

      That should teach em’ to complain.

    15. QUOTE

      Frenzy is a single target attack, it's always going to do more damage (to a single target) than an AoE (unless you missed Flux's comments in the article).

      No, it is stupid. Spenders do at least double, and up to quadruple the damage of generators in most cases.

    16. I just use WW to clip through enemies. If it broker Jailer, I’d use it even more often.

    17. QUOTE

      I just use WW to clip through enemies. If it broker Jailer, I'd use it even more often.

      Furious Charge? Leap?

      • Furious charge- cool-down
        Leap- cool-down
        Whirlwind- no cool-down.

        And that’s why I use it to get away from frozen blasts.When you have 5 champs all tossing out freeze balls at different times while surrounding you, you don’t have no TIME for cool-downs. That’s really all I use it for; a get out of death (90% of the time, at least) card.

    18. Sorry I think I double posted in error

      My only wish on WW is that they remove the 75% speed max. I cant do T5 and T6 using WW, but T4 is passable and if I ever find better swords or 2 more IK pieces T4 should become much easier. Most likely switch to fire rune with an IK setup as I think the ancients will generate plenty of fury.

      Anyways – More speed please for WW would be very useful if we cant have a bit more power. Push that one up the line for us please!

    19. The WW explanation is lame. Flux makes the obvious point that almost every wizard skill is great both single-target and against groups. The thing is, WW isn’t that great against groups. It’s great against swarms of bile crawlers but… say it’s a pack of champions, that’s another story. That said, I’ve tried many builds but I always come back to frenzy+ww. It just feels right. So I guess it’s not all bad. I think Blizzard has bigger fish to fry, in terms of issues that need a fix.

      • yup end of the day it’s still the most fun way to play, no geting hung up on enemies just spin right through them… tried to do a max fury (with 25% bonus dmg passive) frenzy build but it was just too damn boring

    20. I have called out this fraud barb on the forums but of course no1 paid attention to it (sup bnet forums)

      The ‘testing’ by this barb was carried out with Shard of hate. The fury generators will not only proc the weapon a ton, but the 3 charged bolts released will ALL hit ghom due to his hitbox, which FYI can crit for a total for 20m+ damage to even 50m+ (with ruthless at end)

      There was ABSOLUTELY NO WAY WW can outperform the generators in this test, it was designed with the intent to mislead the public. Nothing more, nothing less.

      Go re-do the tests without a SOH and the results will be staggeringly different.

    Comments are closed.