Blizzard brings new Tiered Rift Details


Blizzard brings new Tiered Rift Details, coming soon to the realms to add spice to our play experience. The thread started off with a fan asking about a DPS meter, and the Blue executed a rapid change of direction to the Tiered Rift topic.

And it worked; I don’t care about the initial issue now that there’s MOAR about a new thing. Because shiny!

Wouldn’t it be cool to see how much damage each person contributes to a group? Lets say 4 people are going to do a bunch of rift sessions, or (even more relevant) uber bosses. After the end of the run or each rift you can look at and see who is doing the most dps or whatnot and you can reset the log whenever.

It would be a nice little inner competition between players in a group. I know there would be a lot of stuff that would throw it off but it doesn’t have to be perfect.. just a thought.

“Play the game, don’t focus on who is the best.”
Nevalistis: This is pretty much the reason we haven’t added one. Wyatt mentioned this at the Live Q&A during our launch event, but I know not everyone could watch it, so I’ll reiterate the comment here:

While we know it’s disappointing to some folks, we don’t currently have plans to add a DPS meter to Diablo III. Our team feels that something like a DPS meter puts too much focus on just one aspect of the game. Diablo is a combination of activities – you have to pay attention to not just the amount of damage that you’re doing, but your toughness, healing, movement, how you aim certain abilities or skills, or your positioning. DPS shouldn’t be the only number that matters when you play (although it does play an important part).

The call for this type of feature is often indicative of a desire for a way to measure your progress while playing. It’s important to keep in mind we do have some plans for competitive play, specifically with the upcoming Tiered Rifts feature planned for our first major content patch. Leader boards will be available to track your progress, so you’ll be able to assess your efficiency based on how quickly you can clear these specialty rifts and compare with the community at large. I don’t have details at the moment, but we will have more information on Tiered Rifts and Seasons in the near future. 🙂

People constantly ask for in-game DPS meters, and usually they’re bad suggestions due to the sheet DPS issues in Reaper of Souls. That display is getting less and less useful as more players discover the utility of +elemental damage and +skill damage affixes, neither of which show up in the DPS in your C window or Profile.

tiered-rifts-loading1That said, something in-game that measured the actual damage that players did would be interesting. Obviously Blizzard is trying to avoid it to keep multiplayer games from becoming a total min/max argument. That said, I’d like a stat like that even if only I could see it for me. It can be hard to tell just how much of the damage you’re doing in a multiplayer game; you don’t see the damage numbers for other players after all, and if there are a ton of AoE spells flying around, or someone else is using a build you’ve not tried out you don’t really know how effective they are. It would be intersting to finish a Rift with 2 other people and see if you just did 25%, or 30%, or 40% of the total damage dealt.

But we’re not going to get it.

We will get Tierd Rifts though, eventually. When? In the “near future.” Anyone want to estimate how that time frame compares to “DiabloWikisoon™?”

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  1. I would like to see an average damage counter that runs during a play session. After clearing a rift or doing bounties, you could see what’s actually being output from your playstyle/setup. Make some changes, do some more bounties, see if your damage went up or down.

    • This wouldn’t work in a randomized game.

      How are you supposed to know if your dps was higher because the density was higher, easier to hit monsters or higher dps? You wouldn’t. Some build might be super effective in one rift, and extremely bad in others. If you get a rift with many elites, and you have a SOJ equipped, you will have significantly higher dps than before and you wouldn’t now why.

      That why tiered rifts will be a good measurement for your overall effectiveness since they are always the same. but it would still only show your effectiveness in that specific Rift. Your bounty effectiveness my be totally different.

  2. I think Blizzard’s reasoning is just a cop-out, much in the same way as a customizable UI ala WoW won’t be done because they don’t want “clutter”.

    Diablo is about killing monsters, and you kill with DPS. So how would a utility that shows how much DPS you do distract from playing a game that revolves around DPS?

    If you die too much, your DPS goes down; a DPS meter can also track the # of deaths. There’s no question a DPS meter would be useful, and I frequently wonder how much of my damage comes from Whirlwhind and how much from HotA.

    Just like in WoW, I’d like to see a DPS meter for your overall gaming session, as well as for the last fight. I’d also like to see what my max crit was, how often I’ve crit’d, what my buff uptime has been, etc.

    No DPS meter because it’s distracting? Don’t feed us that crap Blizzard. D3 should have been developed with the lua extensibility in WoW. I guess this idea was Jay Wilson’d fairly early on in the development cycle.

    • What they are really trying to say is they don’t want a DPS meter because it discourages group play. If I see that I’m doing 10M DPS and Joe in my group is doing 5M DPS, I’m less likely to want to play with Joe because I will feel like he slows me down. They especially don’t want an emphasis on this because maybe Joe is using a spec that buffs your damage and toughness a lot. That wouldn’t be accounted for in the DPS meter. Yes it would be nice to for things like trying new builds, but they are understandably avoiding the potential problems it creates for group play. I don’t disagree with their decision.

    • This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think a fully moddable UI was easily the worst thing they did for WoW. My reasons for saying this are many, but the primary ones are:

      1) I hated that people analyzed and criticized everything I did with DPS meters and the like in random groups and then provided their “expert” recommendations.

      2) I don’t like the potentially unfair advantage UI mods can provide in a competitive scenario. Granted, this is not an issue in D3 at the moment, but it may become one in the future.

      In short, no moddable UI please. I very much like to see them improve the UI though. Better skill tooltips would help a ton and if they could tell us how much we can keep up X DPS with Y skill, then I think that could alleviate the need for true DPS meters.

    • no, no, no
      DPS meter is just dumb
      how much DPS are you doing with stun, knowckback, slow, freeze, slow time ?
      all those can be very important, but they might not contribute to a DPS meter at all

  3. To try an guess to when a major content patch is coming: I would have to say no later than June/July. Why, you might ask? They need crossover players to switch back to WoW for Expac in the fall.

    DPS meter feel like an endless debate. There are pros and cons all the way around, but I would love to see how one build fairs against another. Very hard to tell sometimes and having a meter would help to know- what is the most efficient build given what I am doing. If I can do T1 using whatever fun build I like, and I can, then what is the harm in knowing? I do get the flip side where they don’t want people to min/max…but isn’t that the nature of most of us?

  4. Personally, I never envisioned Diablo as a competitive kind of game whatsoever, so Tiered Rifts, Ladders, etc. never really interested me. The game is an action RPG, and if anything I wish it had more RPG elements, more co-op, more quest/crafting type things, and Player vs. monster stuff.

    I hope there is more of that coming that doesn’t require waiting for another expansion. There’s more they can do without adding more acts (see bounties & rifts)

  5. DPS meters will only grow the epeen of the dps cannons in this game, whatever character is the flavor of the month. I can already see all the wizzards complain about the low dps of every other class before their bugs got fixxed. Or the spin-to-win barbs complaining how others didnt do enough dps back in the days.

    People should learn to just enjoy a game 😛 I already know my barbarian cant keep up with the wizard buddies I run with. Not on the C screen, but sure as hell not with AoE’ing down the packs 🙂

  6. QUOTE

    What they are really trying to say is they don't want a DPS meter because it discourages group play. If I see that I'm doing 10M DPS and 

    Joe in my group is doing 5M DPS, I’m less likely to want to play with Joe because I will feel like he slows me down. They especially don’t want an emphasis on this because maybe Joe is using a spec that buffs your damage and toughness a lot. That wouldn’t be accounted for in the DPS meter. Yes it would be nice to for things like trying new builds, but they are understandably avoiding the potential problems it creates for group play. I don’t disagree with their decision.

    That will be 75 cents please for the usage of my name …

    I can see why they did this. It would be nice to know if you are carrying a slacker sometimes lol. There is no other real measure, but this is fine.

  7. “. . . a way to measure your progress while playing.”

    One thing I would like to see is our character’s levels defined by their personal paragon levels rather than our overall account paragon level.

    I play a wizard as my main character and have racked up 127 paragon levels. I’m quite happy with the new paragon system of sharing points across my account, but there is one thing I would change if I could.

    I’ve been playing the crusader in ROS. She recently reached the point where she could start earning paragon points as well.

    My problem is now there is no way to differentiate my characters by level any more. Both are now listed as level 127 paragon and both share the same avatar portrait frame. Unless I look up the actual time I’ve spent playing each character, there really isn’t any other way to tell them apart, or see how much paragon each has contributed to my account.

    I liked the different avatar frames and being able to differentiate my characters by their personal paragon levels.

  8. I am opposed to DPS meters in D3 for various reasons, the most important one being that for me, Diablo is not a competitive game, and a large part of the enjoyment is that I don’t have to be an Nth degree DPS machine to have a lot of fun with it. When I play WoW, I understand how important maximizing DPS is to success in raids or dungeons; maximizing DPS in Diablo is not necessary at all, and it should not be promoted, in my opinion.

    We know the way communities work; if there were DPS meters in games, people would feel pressure to perform to a certain standard, elitists and know-it-alls would have a field day, and public games would become the disaster that random groups in WoW have become. Someone mentioned a personal meter only…not a terrible idea, but you know jerks would find a way to abuse that as well.

    For me, it’s more about enjoying the gameplay anyway-I am not an efficient player, because I don’t need to be. It isn’t important. I hope the devs maintain their current mindset on this, because I think it’s how the game should be played. I respect the fact that others feel differently.

  9. QUOTE

    I am opposed to DPS meters in D3 for various reasons, the most important one being that for me, Diablo is not a competitive game, and a large part of the enjoyment is that I don't have to be an Nth degree DPS machine to have a lot of fun with it. When I play WoW, I understand how important maximizing DPS is to success in raids or dungeons; maximizing DPS in Diablo is not necessary at all, and it should not be promoted, in my opinion. 
    
    We know the way communities work; if there were DPS meters in games, people would feel pressure to perform to a certain standard, elitists and know-it-alls would have a field day, and public games would become the disaster that random groups in WoW have become. Someone mentioned a personal meter only...not a terrible idea, but you know jerks would find a way to abuse that as well. 
    
    For me, it's more about enjoying the gameplay anyway-I am not an efficient player, because I don't need to be. It isn't important. I hope the devs maintain their current mindset on this, because I think it's how the game should be played. I respect the fact that others feel differently.

    I do not really compete with others…it’s more of myself. I love to see improvements, even if marginal, in my own personal output. Maybe I am really odd in this regard?…

  10. QUOTE

    I do not really compete with others...it's more of myself.  I love to see improvements, even if marginal, in my own personal output.  Maybe I am really odd in this regard?...
    I don't think that is odd at all, and I imagine a large number of people would agree with you.
    
    
    This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think a fully moddable UI was easily the worst thing they did for WoW. My reasons for saying this are many, but the primary ones are:
    
    1) I hated that people analyzed and criticized everything I did with DPS meters and the like in random groups and then provided their "expert" recommendations.
    
    2) I don't like the potentially unfair advantage UI mods can provide in a competitive scenario. Granted, this is not an issue in D3 at the moment, but it may become one in the future.
    
    In short, no moddable UI please. I very much like to see them improve the UI though. Better skill tooltips would help a ton and if they could tell us how much we can keep up X DPS with Y skill, then I think that could alleviate the need for true DPS meters.
    Yeah, the "random" experience in WoW is a huge bag of...you know what. The best way to enjoy WoW is to find people you like playing with, and run with them, and one of the great things about WoW is that it caters to so many different playstyles.
    
    As does Diablo! It serves both a breakneck farming pace and a slow, methodical grind, it serves the casual player and the min-maxer, the uninformed and the theorycrafter. This was theoretically true even in D3V, but now that they've fixed the loot system, it is true in practice as well.
  11. WoW mods were incredibly important for a lot of reasons, and made the game a lot better, if not playable in a few circumstances. The original raid frames were garbage, absolute garbage. Healers couldn’t heal that way, they needed something better. Over time, Blizz has taken the best mods and incorporated them into the regular UI (the stock raid frames are much, much better than before). Personally, the most important thing mods have done is allow the user to move stuff around the screen. That’s literally the easiest way to “fix” some of the UI problems. Diablo 3 needs this, badly. For some stupid reason, Blizz loves putting their buffs and cooldowns in weird spots away from the actual action in the game world. Let me put my cooldowns or short term buffs up somewhere a little closer to my character, so I can see and react to them quicker. At least D3 doesn’t require mouseover target macros just to play the damn game (that should be default in WoW, or at least a default option).

  12. QUOTE

    This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think a fully moddable UI was easily the worst thing they did for WoW. My reasons for saying this are many, but the primary ones are:
    
    1) I hated that people analyzed and criticized everything I did with DPS meters and the like in random groups and then provided their "expert" recommendations.
    
    2) I don't like the potentially unfair advantage UI mods can provide in a competitive scenario. Granted, this is not an issue in D3 at the moment, but it may become one in the future.
    
    In short, no moddable UI please. I very much like to see them improve the UI though. Better skill tooltips would help a ton and if they could tell us how much we can keep up X DPS with Y skill, then I think that could alleviate the need for true DPS meters.

    the problem is WoW was setup in a way that coordinated efforts was required and being marginal isn’t much of an option doing heroic raids.

  13. All I want is to have accurate, dynamic damage ranges on skill tool tips. The game calculates what my actual damage is when I use a skill on an enemy, so show me that number range when I mouseover a skill or make it an advanced tool tip. There’s no reason why I should have to use a spreadsheet to figure out what damage my firebats do per second after factoring in +skill% and +elemental damage% items. The “damage” and “toughness” char sheet numbers are as useful in showing actual damage or toughness as healing meters are at showing healer skill in WoW.

    • Good point Solwolf. PoE has an excellent system, bit more spreadsheety than Blizzard would probably like, but they give all the information you would want. They could even put it in the advanced option so the kiddies don’t get all scared and confused because of numbers…

  14. Dps meters have no place in this game. Solo test vs ghom works just fine. There are too many random factors involved in general combat. My guess is that hc mode doesn’t care for dps meter vs normal has nothing to really show “skill” in game.

    Meters in wow are “needed” because you cannot solo things like in d3. If your d3 group clears slower than you can solo, start inspecting to find the reason. Also, wow involves mor complex mechanics for dealing optimal damage vs 1 target.

  15. The need to have a practice target like they have in wow. You could have the DPS meter work only in that area. I’d love to test out differ pieces of gear to see whats happening.

    • Add an NPC, allowing the player to select the defense stats of the puppet by choosing from a list of NPCs already defeated. (Selection by type, Trash to Elite “checkbox” and/or a list of all purples already defeated.) Not a bad idea. 🙂

  16. Is there any difference in leg drop chance whether i play alone or in a party with other players?

  17. QUOTE

    Add an NPC, allowing the player to select the defense stats of the puppet by choosing from a list of NPCs already defeated. (Selection by type, Trash to Elite "checkbox" and/or a list of all purples already defeated.) Not a bad idea. :)

    There would be little point in this, as no enemies have armor and only a very few have resistances (and even then it’s just half damage).

  18. QUOTE

    We know the way communities work; if there were DPS meters in games, people would feel pressure to perform to a certain standard, elitists and know-it-alls would have a field day, and public games would become the disaster that random groups in WoW have become. Someone mentioned a personal meter only...not a terrible idea, but you know jerks would find a way to abuse that as well.

    With or without a DPS meter, pubs will be out dpsed by Eirena in the vast majority of cases

    I’d actually prefer one gets added, as there are too many caught up on listed dps (and not real or true dps, the former taking into account skill and elemental damage and the latter taking into account how much your skills actually do which also includes cooldown reduce, resource reduce etc). Once those people see their uber epeen dps is in fact flaccid they’ll wise up.

    “But they’ll be dicks!” They’d do that anyways, if it bothers you don’t play with them. I wouldn’t.

  19. I love that after the thousands of whine posts of “X came from wow so it sucks” whether they were improvements or not, people are now asking for the single most destructive, disruptive, pointless, fun-ending phallic ruler to be imported straight from WoW. There is nothing good to come of DPS meters. Not one thing.

  20. Dps meters would be one of the WORST things that could happen to this game.

    \I’ll stop using [ability x] which gives the group 10% extra damage and switch it with [skill Y] that gives me 15% extra damage. At least it makes me look good.\

    This would be the most stupid shit ever…

    Like the blue guy said himself; this will apply to crowd control, monster damage reduction, survivability buffs, etc etc… People will start skipping all kinds of cool and interesting abilities just not to look bad on the meters. To feel usefull. Whomever has it in his mind to add damage meters is just looking for a silly game where only 1 aspect matters; dps and personal epeen. EVERYTHING else will start to fade away in value from that point forward.

    The only things which could be potentially interesting is group wide dps (so you still get it if you’re playing solo with your silly DPS only build) OR rather like the blue response said; just leaderboards for rift clearance time. Which in the end is almost the same thing.

  21. I propose a group cohesion meter! The less time you stay in town sniffing glue, and the more time you remain within 20 yards of the other players, the higher the number rises. While in a group, every second spent in town past 60 seconds, your score quickly plummets. This number would transfer between games and be easily visible to everyone when you join the group. A negative score would announce to everyone: “I am a moron!” Players with negative scores would have a 50% chance to be kicked from any group until their score went back into the black.

    DPS meters are the devil. As someone who played a tank for a long time in WoW, I have first hand experience with the negative effects DPS meters have on players intelligence. The only time those meters were needed anyway, was in bleeding edge progression raids, where the thing was designed around maintaining a certain kill speed.

    • -500 points if you sprint/teleport/dashing strike/whatever more than a screen to an XP pool/shrine to make sure you click on it while at least one party member is too far away to get it. Mega-bonus if you have Nemesis bracers while popping the shrine, then run off again to let the shrine-less group members clean up the mess you just made.

  22. Some way of having your personal stat sheet account for +ele dmg and +skills dmg would be very welcome.
    Group or personal _DPS_ meters would be very horrible.

    Honestly, after just a few minutes in a random group even an inexperienced D3 player can tell who is putting in work and who isn’t carrying water. It’s just not that hard to tell and that’s all you really need to know in D3. You don’t need to know what the vast range of middle-of-the-packers are doing for dps, you only need to be able to identify the brightest shining lights (so you can friend them) and the dimmest bulbs (so you can avoid them). And that is already possible for anyone paying even a small amount of attention.

  23. I, Clavdivs, The God, declare the idea of “sharing the bounty proportional to DPS” worthy of Caligula (for less inclined, my perverse, cruel and uncommonly incompetent nephew – never properly deified, also)

    I, Clavdivs, The God, also declare a multiplayer part of the game a “PvE”, in which group of people (friends or strangers) play TOGETHER against cruel cruel world, for the COMMON good. Individuals with ‘DPS-ier than thou’ attitude should play alone, or perhaps in PvP – if it ever gets implemented.

    At this point, few large flaws become apparent:
    1. not all characters are of use to the group – in d2, most classes had aura/curses/etc, which was useful to the group regardless of DPS capabilities of the character in question – one could safe play with any decent paladin, barbarian etc, knowing that he/she has useful buffs/debuffs which will contribute. D3 has no such insurance

    2. %MF system connected with game level, and almost fully unconnected with character – players not fit to play Torment 26 typically are *aware* of this, and wouldn’t even try it under normal circumstances, but… that 2500% free-MF is just too tempting

    The God discussed the many flaws of game-level (or paragon) based mf% several times, and each time pointed this. Results are showing, and were easy to predict – to a heavenly intellect, at least. The consequence is that the game is not what was intended – multiplayer is desirable for low-gear player, and not so much for high-ones (except in known parties of similar strength).

    The God, being omniscient and all, knows solutions to all problems the game has, but won’t discuss them here and now, because it is how The God rolls.

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