Are Invulnerable Minions Challenging or Imba?


A fan complained about the Invulnerable Minions DiabloWikiboss modifier and amidst the positive airing of views and constructive criticism we’ve come to expect from Battle.net forum conversation (actual quote from a typical reply, “Its called stradegy retard learn how to play”), he got a fairly vague reply from a CM.

Remove Invulnerable Minions

Get this crap out of the game. Every other affix is reasonable. This is not. It’s poorly designed and makes killing many champions impossible.

Do the right thing and get rid of it. It’s garbage.
Lylirra:Speaking in general about monster affixes:

The intention is for there to be differences in the difficulties of the monster packs. Some are hard, some are easy — and some may seem impossible. When you are first beginning Inferno, you can pick off the easy ones without much challenge, but you may have to skip some of the harder ones. That’s okay. As you become more powerful, you can survive better, deal more damage, and take on some of the affix packs you previously chose to avoid. And after gearing up even further, eventually you can take them all on. It won’t be a cakewalk, but you won’t run in abject terror the next time you see that Invulnerable Minions combo pack sauntering your way (okay…you might run a little). Certain monster affixes will also punish certain skill builds more than others, as many of our affixes do.

We’ve been watching feedback closely about all the affix types and we’ve seen a lot of responses to concerns such as “I have no problem with them” or “use skill X instead and you’ll be fine” or “I used to have trouble but then I got some X gear and now I’m fine”. This is what we intend to happen over time.

Speaking of Invulnerable Minions specifically:

All that said, we definitely are paying attention to your feedback (as mentioned earlier), and we’ll make adjustments to monster affixes as we see necessary. We will always intend that some affixes are harder than others, and we’ll mostly be making adjustments to ensure some affixes aren’t radically out of line.

If you’ve yet to encounter this lovely Elite affix, it’s like the Shielded affix, except it never goes away. The boss is mortal and normal, but all of his minions are permanently shielded and can not be injured or killed by any sort of player attack. They only die when the boss dies, so the challenge is to take out the boss while somehow avoiding his posse. You can try to split them up (easier in multiplayer), you can cover the world with AoE, you can try to tank the lot (difficult without life leech coming from the minions), or you can simply run and try to park them somewhere. Fun fun fun!

So is this a valid, fair modifier for bosses to sport? To help you decide, I’ve grabbed a few videos showing off Inferno boss battles. This first one shows the usual thing, with lots of running, kiting, running, kiting, nearly dying, etc. It features a Wizard vs. a Skeleton with Vortex, Waller, Electrified, and Invulnerable Minions.


Update: If you’d like a forum discussion about this where no one’s telling anyone else to use “stradegy,” click that link. There’s a poll that’s showing heavy disapproval of Invul Minions, though the FOX News-worthy biased wording of the vote options might have something to do with that.

Click through for a few other videos starring Invulnerable minions and use the comments to say if you think these are a legit type of monster, or are OP and no fun.


Plagued, Waller, Frozen, Invulnerable Minions Scavengers vs. a Monk.


Video of fans getting mega-wiped by an Arcane Enchanted Jailer Invulnerable pack, edited in with some footage of the Diablo III devs talking about what makes for a good monster behavior.


The only one from outside of Act One, this features a Wizard vs. a Waller, Frozen, Knockback, Invulnerable Minions pack on the ramparts of Bastion’s Keep.


The best videos is this long one which shows about 20 Inferno boss fights from Act One. It stars a solo wizard uses Blizzard and Hydras as his primary attacks, combined with a lot of running/kiting/Teleporting and a huge amount of life regen from equipment. The invul pack come at 13:47, and if you look on the YT page the details list every single pack, their mods, and the time of the battle. The longest battle is indeed the one against the Invulnerable scavengers.

Tagged As: | Categories: Blizzard People, Blue Posts, Diablo 3, Monsters

Comments

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  1. if you can’t beat a pack skip it , don’t QQ because you suck…farm better gear and kill it
    it’s exactly the same as Diablo 2…yet so many ppl expect to clear everything within 3 weeks.
    f’n noobs 

    • Sometimes you can’t really skip packs, depending on the layout of the area you’re in. Some of the faster A2 and A3 mobs, combined with some of the confined areas in those acts, are incredibly hard to evade.

      • Yes, but you can always leave the game and reroll the map.
         
        Cheap? Maybe, but it IS part of the game design. I’ve always argued for persistent worlds in D3, but since they chose not to do that and went with the mechanic we have, I wouldn’t consider it exploiting.

        • In any case, I think it’s indicative of a design problem if there’s one particular monster modifier where the generally-accepted strategy to defeat them is to lure them out of the way or to restart the game.

          I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case with Invulnerable Minions, but if it is, then I’d say there’s a problem. 

    • ridiculous reply 

      words and phrases like “QQ” and “you suck” “and “f’n noobs” are exactly the the kind of condescending and non helpful replies that don’t solve anything 

    • Whoosh, right above Lylirra’s head. What they, Blizzard people, don’t seem to get is that players will have a strong tendency to associate what isn’t fun (such is the case for Invulnerable Minions) to what is impossible, broken, and so on. While IM is, at the base, a good idea (it forces you to smart target), it’s hated the same way IM (hah, Iron Maiden shares the same acronym!) was in D2. Why? Because you had to stop killing shit. Diablo is about just that, and when you make half a screen immune to your damage and effects (or flat out prevent you from attacking anything in fear of killing yourself), you kill the killing spree which makes Diablo so fun.

      Source: My website.

      • I’ve run into a few invulnerable minions on hell, and I thought they were pretty fun. Can’t say i’ll say the same when I get to inferno though.

      • It’s not Lylirra’s job to make balance decisions. She re-stated the design goal – that some packs will be tougher than others – and she also said that they’ll make changes as necessary.

        What you, ElementEight, don’t seem to get is that it’s not up to a Community Manager to make a decision one way or another with regards to a game design or balance issue.

    • Yup, skip it. It’s so easy to run away when they have fast or vortex or walling…  Normal people will just get frustrated and quit playing this game. That’s alot of people.

      • Inferno isn’t designed for “everyone”. I really have no idea where people are getting the idea that they should be able to beat Inferno, and that they have somehow failed unless they do it. Inferno is designed to be brutally challanging and difficult, difficulty that only a small percentage will beat and even smaller precentage of players will thrive in. Those that get frustrated and leave due to repeated dying, and those who aren’t willing to re-re-examine their build, their gear, their strat, or accept the fact that they just plain need to grind more, they aren’t the people that Inferno is designed for. 

        At this stage of the game’s development, Inferno can perhaps best be compared to vanilla WoW’s end game raids that required vast amounts of time and patiance spent trying to build up your gear and to build up your patiance for inevitable wipe. I believe there is a statistic that less then 5% of WoW’s population raided during vanilla years. Few months/years, I imagine Inferno will be the same. Ultimately, Inferno is designed around old-school concept of “try as you might, you will fail”, and requires more patiance, dedication and skill then the average and even above-average player is capable of.

    • Obviously you haven’t met an invulnerable Demonic Tremor pack in Inferno.

    • Sometimes I have a very hard time even targeting the boss, because I would end up clicking on the minion.

  2. Invulnerable Minions is way easier than Shielding. But then again maybe I’m overgeared for Act 1 and I’m clearly not ready for A2 so I’m not messing around in there.

    • I’d say it depends on your class/skills. Invulnerable minions are more likely to intercept ranged attacks, but if you can plant AoE on top of their leader it will get through.

  3. The mod needs to stay. It is quite fun, actually, as long as you don’t get too frustrated from dying repeatedly. Besides, if they do take away the mod, there will be a ton of qq-ing and battle.net forums will be full of rage posts that they are killing diversity and variaty of the game and that they are making it “noob friendly”. It’s a lose-lose situation for Blizzard so might as well keep the mod. 

    • The problem is that some people only get to die once >.<. But I agree that the mod needs to stay. One of the most rewarding experiences for me in HC was when I actually managed to kill one of those damned invulnerable minions packs ;).

    • I want to see the mod stay, but I think it could possibly use a nerf. My suggestions would be to take away the CC reduction of the minions so that you can actually use some tactics against them to separate them from their leader and/or to simply increase the time before the “enrage debuff” kicks in (same goes for shielding champions on that one).

      • My suggestion is to have the minions simply die at certain fractions of the boss’s health. If there are 4 minions, then they die at 80/60/40/20. That way it starts out very challenging, then becomes easier as the fight goes on.

        • good idea.  I was thinking that perhaps they make it so the inv shield comes down for a number of seconds at randomly during the fight. 

      • Or rename it to “heavily regenerating minions”. And do just that.

  4. In the halls of agony we (monk and wiz) encountered a familiar pack of Dark Cultist. Plagued and Invulnerable and Shielder were 3 of the 4 affixes I remember. My friend  kept almost all minions busy so I had to deal with 1 minion and the boss. Needless to say it took a while because of the shielding boss, and when I could almost kill him, he became enraged and I died a bit later because of it.
    It was okay, he had little HP left, so we went back and we found the boss with maximum HP and still enraged. We gave up there.
    The invulnerable affix itself isn’t imba at all, it becomes pretty hard combined with certain other affixes. 

  5. Diablo 2’s fatal flaw was that once, for example, your Amazon had Faith, Chains of Honor, Torch and some form of Amp Damage anything could be killed with ease. It’s nice that D3 Inferno is insurmountable for some people.

  6. I thought the point of the game was a hack n’ slash.. not a runaway/kite/runaway and blast form a distance /repeat until dead.
     
    Even in d2 with immune monsters every single class had a way of defeating it.. if you couldn’t figure that out that was your lack of knowledge of the skill tree.

    In d3.. you just get unlucky/kite,runway, shoot,kite,runaway. Really takes the fun out of it.. unless you like WoW

    • Depends which class you’re playing – I’m happily hacking and slashing my way through Act 1 Inferno with my Barb now, including invulnerable minion packs. It’s not easy – but I don’t die unless I screw up like stand still in desecration for a second too long, or not move away from arcane. If you play a ranged class – expect to kite – that’s what half of your abilities are designed for after all

    • cd potions says hi. stop comparing d3 to d2.

  7. It IS complete garbage and i do hope they get rid of it. Kiting packs like this takes forever as demonstrated in the video and that is not longer even close to what makes diablo gameplay “fun”. It’s cool to be able to rip through mobs and feel powerful. It’s already bad enough that the whole unqiue and champion packs are so badly overdone in diffculty since they wanted them to replace bosses lootwise, but stuff likes this just makes it *sigh*, painful really.

    • So, they are difficult, you can’t beat them so you want them gone. Number one, if they start throwing out things that many/most people can’t beat, what will be left of the game? Normal diff., maybe. The fact that you, and many more, can’t beat it means that you need to revise and revisit your build, your stats and yes, your gear, because, at end of the day, Diablo, any Diablo, is item game.

      I don’t want to sound like an old geezer, especially since I’m only 22, but back in previous decades, games were so much harder then they are now, and that is because of the philosophy of the gamers and game developers. Games were considered a challange, nowadays, games are designed to be beatable, but back then, games were designed so that, unless you had serious skill and dedication, you would never see the ending. That’s the design philosphy behind inferno as well. It isn’t meant to be beatable by everyone, in fact, the fact that so many people are having such difficulty crossing it means that it is working as intended. Farm more gear, get better build, upgrade your stats and then do your best, and inevitably die. That is the point of Inferno. Majority of players aren’t supposed to beat it.

      As a final point, we, the players, repeatadly asked and pleaded with Blizzard to make Inferno brutally difficult so that it would “take months to finish it”. I consider this to be promise kept by Blizzard. 

      And the captcha says, “push on”. You should heed its advice. 

      • Amen.

        Me (Barb) and a fellow powerful wizard recently got IM spider in Hell and just forgot about that dude he pwned us so much. I could jump out and say “OP, get rid of it” but I don’t, because of 2 main reasons:

        1. My gear has LOTS of room for improvement
        2. There are hundreds of skill/gear combinations I have not tried yet

      • Hear, Hear!!  I pray Inferno slows me down and gives me a challenge and reason to keep playing.  If I am able to walk all over Inferno as I am Hell, 2 weeks from now I’ll not be playing D3 any more.  D3 does not have an item hunt as D2 did (there is not point in hunting the impossible to find Sets and Legendaries; they are designed to be underpowered, and thus are unusable, especially in Inferno), nor a reason to re-roll and try a new class build.
         
        I know there are a lot of people that watched the above Wizard video and saw nothing but a stupidly long, drawn out, monotonous, un-fun battle, but that’s not what I go out of watching it.  My brain was on overdrive, thinking how I could build a Wizard that would own the battle.  In others words, the video made me want to get a Wizard to Inferno so I could fight the battle myself.  For now, I’ll have to settle for my Monk, and pray that Blizzard does not CAVE before I get the chance.
         

        • The problem isn’t that people can’t beat it.  I have run into these with my wizard and EVENTUALLY won the fight.  The issue is that there shouldn’t be a game mechanic that makes me want to skip the content because it is un-fun.  Now that I have beaten this combination (and I freely admit that it was very satisfying the first time to finally see that boss fall), I know I can do it, and doing it again doesn’t prove anything, except that I have 10-20 minutes to waste.  I think this, rather than the difficulty, is what people have a problem with.  I don’t do sudoku anymore because I realized that it’s just a matter of persistence once you’ve acquired the requisite skills.  That’s what this monster affix reminds me of – diablo sudoku.  I CAN do it, but I’d rather not.  

  8. Blizzards entire scaling method is completely off. Worst yet, you never get useful item drops. It’s just bad game design all around.

    • Love this – if you never get any useful item drops – where are the useful items you see on the AH coming from? 

      • I think he meant that the game doesn’t feel rewarding. Millions of players are in game every day, so there’s a high chance that eventually someone gets a nice item he can sell.

        • Wrong, if there was so few good items dropping, you wouldn’t see them on the AH, because the millions of other people not dropping anything good would have bought it before you.
          Loot is pretty well balanced (besides weapons in inferno act 1-2 being as useful as whites since there is no possible way for them to be good enough to use compared to cheap act 3-4 weapons you get on the AH) and the rewards mostly comes from the gold you get out of your sales, you’ll get a pretty nice rewarding feeling once you get used to what items are worth how much, just the way it was in D2.
          I also think the game shouldn’t be nerfed because some people think it’s too hard after less than 3 weeks, we’ll see in a couple month if it really is too hard.
          The only thing I could see as an interesting change would be balancing inferno act1 drops a bit so we get a bit less lvl 50 shit and maybe a tiny droprate of ilvl 63 items. Would make the transition between act 1 and 2 a little less hard.

  9. I’ll wait for the supportes of Invulnerable Minions to show up and tell everyone else how much they suck.
    “I am in Act 1 Inferno and it’s no problem!!11” – duh..

  10. Same as a lot of people here, I don’t understand all the QQing about how hard it is. This is what people were asking for, and now that it IS this difficult, people are upset. Makes no sense to me. Play the friggin game.

    • This. Play the game, farm some better gear, learn how to deal with tough combinations, stop whining

    • This game is about killing monsters, right? And then the “you cannot kill those monsters, hhahahhahaha” affix coming, and bumm… You cannot kill those monsters, but the game is still about killing them. This affix is make no sense to me. If you cannot kill a monster (or more) is not hard, its going squarely whats the game about.

      • You can still kill them. It just takes a different approach – kill the boss and they all die. So what would you like removed next? Ranged mobs, because they don’t run to you to get slaughtered?

    • Some other affixes are difficult and that’s good, but this one is difficult AND boring…

    • No it isn’t. People asked for a difficult and challenging game and Blizzard couldn’t think of anything better then to make certain mobs invulnerable? Fucking pathetic gamedesign.

  11. I’m not in Inferno, so I haven’t experienced this yet, but in principle, my reaction to Lylirra’s reply is:
     
    1) It mostly makes sense. The idea that some parts of the game should be difficult is fairly obviously a good thing and will fairly obviously make some people whine. You need to listen to the whiners objectively to make sure they don’t have a valid point, but if they don’t you need to be willing to ignore them and let them complain.
     
    However …
     
    2) If the suggested mitigation strategy is “Run!” then you need to make sure that’s practical. So many of the other monster affixes are anti-run, that I’m not sure running is a realistic strategy. Suppose your Invulnerable enemy is also waller, jailer, chains, knockback (which seems to also have some sort of stun or knockdown), teleport, vortex, etc. You’re not going to run very far before your “strategy” turns into die and resurrect somewhere else. I’ve also seen more than a few cases where a boss pack spawns more or less on top of a waypoint. Where do you run now?
     
    3) If the suggested mitigation strategy is “Use a different skill,” then you need to make sure that’s practical. I only have 4 hotkeys and 6 skills total. Supposedly the idea is that no specific skill is required to play the game. So are you saying that while I’m getting annihilated by that mortar, arcane, invulnerable pack, I should pop up the full screen skill interface with it’s 10 click per skill design and swap around my skills? That doesn’t sound very realistic. It doesn’t sound very fun either. If I have a build that works on every other monster in the game, saying I should switch skills for these guys makes sense in other games but not in this one.
     

    • the only truly intelligent and thoughtful reply so far 

      VOTE UP ! ! !

    • Also very true. Hard to run sometimes and adjusting-the-skills-to-situations system does not really work well with the cooldowns and interface.

      I’d be nice to at least have a hot-swap options for builds like it’s already been suggested a billion times, either with no cooldown or a very low cooldown. 

    • Finally, someone that actually uses their brain.

    • Yeah you need to be able to deal with them somehow. TBH from what I read it not Invulnerable per say but what else they get on top of this.

  12. hmm if i think back … didnt they remove a similar affix before?

    i dont know, i think it was bloodlink or lifelink or something. where the minions health was linked to each other and you couldnt get them below 1hp until you killed the boss..? well, something like that.

    well, they said it simply wasnt fun to run into that affix and have to deal with that – so they removed it.

    please, correct me if im wrong here.

    i cant predict how we will play in a month or two (if we still do), but i dont remember diablo being about running away and getting a hit in every now and then.

    of course, D2s endgame is also not what i want, but what we have now….

    well, i hope this changes a bit in the future 

    • Health link is in this game; and really it’s the same thing as “invulnerable minions” cuz everything loses health at (approximately) the same speed. 1 Dies, they all die. That’s the same as invulnerable, just lets you target whatever.
       

      • ah i havent encountered it yet. 
        thanks for clearing that up dude. 

      • It’s actually nothing like Invulnerable.  The monsters only share health if they are near each other, and once you are over 20kdps, you can easily burn one down faster than the health link rate.  If you are in a multiplayer game, its fairly easy to split them up, and kill them one at a time as well.

        Probably the easiest Trait to deal with in my opinion. 

    • You don’t remember Lister’s pack?

    • You are talking about ‘Die Together’. Yeah, the developers said it was good on paper but it didn’t work well in the game.

  13.  
    Few things here
     
     
     
    1. Is the mod fun? that’s really the question. Easy or hard should not matter as much as the fun factor
     
    2. Every time someone complains that something might be too hard other people insist of flexing their internet muscles and claim that they beat so the OP must just suck
     
    3. This is not nearly the most annoying mob for me then again I am not a barb that requires leech to stay alive
     
    4. I like the mod and think it should stay. Fix the insta kills before removing elite mods
     

    • i especially agree with the last point. That’s one thing I hoped would change in this game, and despite someone telling me it was going to change, it didn’t. I just don’t like the fact that I can deal with 90% of the stuff in a reasonable way (I’m not saying easily, with some effort) but then can get pwnd in 1 second or 1 hit. And while I understand that careful gearing and planing can greatly mitigate that, I just wish it somehow worked differently.

    • The mod is fine by it self it when you get other ones added to it that it becomes a problem.

  14. It depends. If the boss is a summoner like those in leorics manor, my WD is rip all the time because i can’t kite them good enough there.

    • Monsters that a summoner spawns are not considered as elite minions, hence are not invulnerable.

      • Summoners will spawn with “elite minions” ones that are already summoned and have their abilities. Once they summon during the encounter will not get them.

  15. I would like to correct the post saying that Invulnerable Minions = shielding except that invulnerable stays forever.
    It’s just wrong. You can’t use crowd control on a shielded monster but you can use crowd control on the invulnerable minions making that boss mod easier than shielding (of course it depends on the monster type and the other mods that they have).

    I’m personnaly completly fine with that boss mod, just take some crowd control spell (Monk’s blinding spell or Wizard’s Nova works like a charm on them). 

    • Just ran into my first invulnerable group in Act 1 hell.

      Didn’t know they existed until now. I’ve been playing through hardcore mode with very little prior knowledge of the game and as little looking things up as I can get away with.

      Got as close as I ever have to dying facing invulnerable/teleport/knockback. Logged in at a checkpoint and didn’t have any safe place to run, couldn’t take out the main guy. Eventually got lucky and tp’d out.

      No complaints here though. I’m sure I’ll meet another some time, might go better, might go worse.

  16. As a barbarian I don’t find invulnerable minions to be out of line in difficulty. I mean I have to get into melee and absorb hits from all the monsters no matter what affix they have, so killing the boss first or killing a minion first is fairly similar. Though on really hard packs sometimes I do just try to take out 1 minion first then die myself – repeat until they are all dead. You can’t do that strategy against the invuln minions, clearly.
     
    However, I do find some of the other affixes that ranged don’t care about to be much more challenging. Things like molten or fire chains. Ranged can just avoid them entirely, where I get slammed over and over since the monsters are right there in my face. Especially fire chained, where monsters naturally run circles around me when I move in to melee to attack. I doubt ranged heroes ever get hit with the chains if they are kiting properly.
     
    Basically what I’m saying is its BALANCED.  Sure invulnerable minions is a giant PITA for ranged characters to deal with. However, its really not that bad for melee. Guess what; some of the other affixes are that bad for melee. Gonna nerf them too?

    • I agree with what you are saying here.  I have to mention though (as a wizard), finding a build that can deal with Invulnerable Minion really isnt that hard.  Any attack that pierces will work (arcane orb, hydras, blizzard, disintigrate, etc), as you can simply “go around” the minions.  The challenging bit, is that they are immune to CC, but I’ve found that decoys work just fine (mirror image, teleport-fracture).

    • take one of those painful mods and add invulnerableon top of it now have fun!

  17. Let the modifiers stay. Seriously? Just because some player complains about him not being able to solo through some champions with killer traits. Too bad. Not everything should be able to be done with solo. You can’t do it, get others to play along. Or get new items. Tweak your skills. Do something but whine. A game like Diablo needs challenge so that it doesn’t go stale over time. Don’t ruin the fun of others just because you can’t defeat an uber pack of champions and beg for the some difficulty reduction. If you can’t handle Inferno, then go back to Hell difficulty.

    • Please, please post these comments on the official forums also so blizz can see that there are players that enjoy the game difficulty as it is and dont like to 1-shot everything in one week. Some of us actualy enjoy a challenge. I believe i have encountered the invulnerable minions about 5 times so far and not once had i need to skip them. Sure its a bit frustrating if u die a couple of times but hell, that’ what keeps me going. If i had finished the game in 1-2 weeks and was uber, i would’t be playing any more

  18. Only thing in game that Wiz or DH cannot easily solo in game eyes shut and they want it nerfed? What next?

    • Funny you say that because I don’t give a damn about invulnerable on my DH (nether tentacles and even hungering arrow gets through), shielding is way more disruptive if not difficult. I hate seeing them with my witch doctor (not using spirit barrage) and my barb (no life leech).

      • Perfect example as to why the whiners should quit complaining.  Instead trying something different they just keep using what DOESN’T work and then complain about it.

  19. IMO Blizz should make walls vulnerable to attacks. Most of the times i die because i get walled and can’t escape. If there was a way to “kill” walls it should make it more balanced. This might seem off-topic but it isn’t. Most affixes look become much more powerfull when you are trapped inside a wall and can’t avoid them, such has the invunerable or frozen.

  20. It’s funny. It used to be that if you couldn’t beat the game, you weren’t good enough. Now it’s the developers’ fault and needs to be nerfed. 🙄
    These guys need to get themselves some skill and determination instead of whining like a bunch of five year-olds.

  21. where is it implied that anyone “thinks they’re better than the rest” 

    well actually the only that implies that is you  

    you think you have learned to play the game and every else hasn’t 

    Dr Elmer Jiggles’s post is so much better than yours: intelligent, well thought out, well reasoned; 
    yours ? not so much 
     

    • James, it’s ironic that you criticized another poster for contemptuous and ad hominem remarks further up this thread, when virtually every post of yours exemplifies precisely that :p

  22. Personaly i dislike invulnerable minions for many reasons.
    1. You need to kite like **** with any class. To the person saying in a reply before to \just tank\ the minions well…good luck with that on inferno past act 1.

    2. You stil cant kite all the enemies. The fast gapcloser in act 1 and 2 invulnerable… maybe even a speed affix. Yep so much fun… not.

    3. As people pointed out, if i wanted to kite all day i would play a class that requires it where its reasonable to survive, right now EVERY class is forced to. You may come now \uh but game not difficult enough blabla.\ IF you are highly geared and have heavy endgame items you spend millions on or were just lucky finding you SHOULD have a chance and not be forced to just act like there was no gear upgrade ever.

    4. Everyone who is like leave the affix in, please please enter the canalisation or a similar tight spot and encounter \invincible minions, horde,….\ affix. Try to get past that if the enemy got more speed than you despite bonus from equipment and bodyblocking the way even to the bossminion itself.

    5. \uh but but you can use aoe blabla\… yep i can and than hes vampiric and heals its back np or has more hp…or i am simple in a game with 4 people that all get at least 3 hit by monsters while the boss hangs back with 2x the hp…not fun, not reasonable.

    6. Enjoying inferno singleplayer more because mobs are acctualy killable in a reasonable time and you can take down bosses with IM before enrage should not be labeled a \good design\

    7. Enrage timer + IM ….horrible. I really wonder the wizzard in the first video didnt trigger it but last time i died to an enraged i lost 30k hp as i approached him again not even getting him in visionrange. Now imagine trying it with minion bodyblock.

    8. Unaffected by cc and its not fun to run every way three or 4 times fighting bosspacks only to be chased all the way back by im <.<.

  23. The problem is that it stacks with other mods making it bullshit some times. This is how I learned what the enrage timer is: Extra Health, Invulnerable, Shielding, Mortar.

    There’s nothing fun about that. Mortar needs to be removed because it doesn’t work as intended and it’s buggy as hell. Missile Dampening does what mortar is supposed to, but much better. 

  24. The invulnerable minions affix, and a few others (extra health, vampiric), simply make for tedious fights. Add that to the ridiculous hit points of those monsters and it gets annoying. A few combinations of affixes are just stupidly broken.
     
    I really think they need to look at the affix combinations some, and tweak them so some affixes wont spawn on certain monsters. Phase beasts with knockback, jailer, fire chains. No thanks. Fast and teleport; try to kite that. The Nephalem Valor system was designed to make us stick with the same build, but if they intend us to switch skills to defeat certain packs, then those two ideas are going against each other.
     
    Overall, I think elite monsters should have less hp. Maybe 25% less hp. The extra 1 minute you have to spend kiting doesn’t add anything to the fun/challenge.

    • Haha, just experienced what Vortex + Arcane means yesterday. Add to that a Waller or Freeze or Jailer and it becomes interesting on how to beat that without dying.

  25. Challenging, sure, though more imba I’d say. I think the issue is that that they punish a lot of builds, because if you don’t have an attack that can penetrate or AoE — essentially ensure you’re always hitting the pack leader — then you’re royally screwed. Of course, having a versatile build is sort of part of the game, but it’s a bit problematic still, since it’s such a specific kind of challenge with a narrow solution in the way molten or vortex etc, isn’t.
     
    I think it should be removed anyhow.

  26. I love this mod. I remember people crying when in Diablo 2 LoD they introduced physical immunes 😀

  27. I agree that the Invulnerable rare monster trait should be toned down a bit. There’s no need to directly nerf the whole thing though, a bit of tweaking might already do the trick:
     
    1. Do not allow both the Invulnerable and Horde traits to roll on the same rare monster.
     
    2. Instead of making the invulnerable minions meat shields who absorb any attacks made into the direction of the rare monster, make them “ethereal”/ghostly, so that they are still there but do not block your or your missiles’ path.
     

     
    What I personally think is faaar worse than the Invulnerable trait, are Fire Chains and Mortar on certain monster types.

    Ever had Fire Chains on those pesky little spiderlings? Those are all over the place, move very quickly and erratically change directions while swirling all around you. Before you even notice the pack and move one step, you have crossed 95341267 chains already where even the first or second one directly kills you on Inferno difficulty. I always feel somewhat reminded of that tricky laser beam trap scene from one of the (first?) Resident Evil movies, whenever that happens to me.

    Mortar is similar when applied to a pack of hit&run enemies (damn those imps!): It hits as painfully hard as if you’re doing something terribly wrong when not closing into melee combat but you simply can’t avoid it because you can’t chase all of the running enemies at the same time.

  28. Invulnerable + Shielding = fun 😛

  29. Can’t kill something effectively? Skip it and come back later on. It’s how the entire game works, and this should be no exception.

    • I wish it were that simple. If every class had some way to get out of every possible combination (or even most combinations) of elites I’d like the game much more. It isn’t even as game-breaking as it sounds since the more elites you try and skip this way the less loot you’d get.
      But the reality is that any attempts at escaping result in me getting walled/jailed/vortex’d to death. Even if I pop Serenity I’ll be hit by the same spell shortly after and even if I manage to somehow run away most packs are more than fast enough to easily keep up with you unless you reach an entrance.
      The end result is that “skipping” involves quitting the game whenever you face an “impossible” set of affixes and restarting, requiring you to redo all your progress since the last checkpoint. This isn’t fun!

    • Try it when the blighters have got the speed mod

  30. Seriously, what is with people thinking idiotic mods like Invulnerable is good game design because it makes the game difficult to play? Would a monster that blackens your entire screen so you can’t see count as good game design just because it makes the game hard? Ofcourse not. Implying that the game couldn’t have been made extremely hard and difficult without resorting to these bullshit abilities is also a complete fallacy, not that these idiots take the time to use their two braincells to think for a moment though. People that don’t understand what’s wrong with these mods don’t know anything about gaming, and it shows when they try to give advise on how to defeat these monsters. “Just split them up lol” or “skip them and come back later lol”.
    Good gamedesign would be to make invulnerable minions instead extremely durable yet offensively less damaging, for example.
    Things like waller and jailer is also utterly retarded, why the fuck can’t these walls/jails be damaged? And why must they be cast instantly so that the player isn’t given the option to not get walled in/jailed with skilled play? From a gamedesign standpoint it makes no sense to give mobs the ability to instantly lock the player in place without giving the player a reasonable option to escape.
    And then the advise of this brainless CM “just use different skills luls”? So as a player i’m being forced to fit certain very specific skills into my build to counter some badly designed ability the designers of this pos game gave to mobs?

  31. The funny thing is that Median XL has this feature in reverse. Instead of having to kill the boss first, you have to kill the minions first and you can only start killing the boss when the minions are dead. It makes a lot more sense that way. There are several places with invulnerable units, but they are also intangible so you can walk and shoot through them (lanterns, snakes, Ureh zombies, Dark Uldyssian and crew) and they are also slow and dumb enough to park easily or feed a summon and run away.

    There is one area that does have “invulnerable minions”: Kurast 3000 BA and its shield totems, which also happen to summon more monsters. However the totems don’t move or attack and the skeletons are generally ranged and lose the shield if they get 2 screens away, so if you just loop around the skeletons and kill the totem or kite them for 5 seconds you are fine.

    There is a reason why I didn’t give the Invulnerable Minions mechanic to any pack that 1/ follows you and 2/ crowds around you. Blizzard, being Blizzard, didn’t give it much thought and so you get the current highly irritating mechanics. I wonder if a teleport horde boss with this modifier could surround you with minions and then teleport away? If he does that you are trapped with no way out and essentially screwed. Great idea there Blizzard.

  32. In Hell I had an Invulnerable Minions, Arcane Enchanted, Illusionists pack. That was fun….

    I can only imagine what an Invulnerable Minions, Arcane Enchanted, Illusionists, Horde pack would be like…..

  33. i just wish i could generate spirirt when attacking the minions.

  34. People defending anything because “harder is better” should really learn about Fake Difficulty.
    (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty)
    As pointed out earlier, a mod turning your screen black ou making enemies completely invisible is not good game design.
    Solutions to the IM problems could be a cap on minion numbers, possibility to break the groups apart, making the boss invulnerable until the minions are gone, progressively killing minions at certain levels of boss health, making them ethereal so it’s not impossible to target the correct enemy and so on.
    I really wish Hydra, pets and traps would stop trying to attack shielded enemies…

  35. I would say TRY ThIS AS WD.

  36. I hope they don’t take any affixes out… I hope they add more!  Sure some combos are crazy and can get near impossible to beat (inv. minions, horde, fast/nightmarish, vortex/jailer comes to mind) but that’s what keeps the fear of what’s around the corner in the game.  Some of my favorite D3 stories start off with “oh man, I ran into a champion pack with ….” Sometimes I win… a lot of times I lose.  But since boss fights are pretty easy, champion packs are all we have left to keep that little bit of fear in the game.

    Something they do need to fix is if you kill the boss of inv. minions too far away from a minion, the minion doesn’t die.  So you have an inv. mob running around after you with no way to kill it… now that’s IMBA!  😀  

  37. Invulnerable minions is extremely unfair for 2 reasons. I’ve seen it show up on burrowing, leaping monsters in act 1. The rare can go underground and be untargetable while the minions run around dropping lava on the ground (molten) and smacking you. This is completely different than shielding, because you can usually attack one of the pack that isn’t shielded and sometimes you can aoe them.

    I don’t know if they’re immune to CC, I can’t remember.

    They are immune to damage, and this is primarily why they are unfair. Barbarians need to hit stuff to heal with most of their abilities, and stuff being immune means they do not heal. Blizzard should work around this with abilities like revenge and furious charge, but until then, Barbarians, which are already weak, are punished unfairly.

    I’m fine with invulnerable minions normally; it’s hard and challenging, but with monsters that disappear or as a barbarian it’s problematic. 

  38. I love the boss mods with the exception of this one. they make you employ different tactics.
    waller and mortar make positioning for ranged characters more difficult. they don’t necessarily kite these but they constantly have to move around. desecrator does this for melee as well as ranged.

    plagued, arcane, and frozen are all area denial type effects. you have to use your escape skills and defensive cooldowns.

    shielding and illusionist make focus firing more difficult.

    molten and fire chains makes sure you have to manuever around the mobs constantly if you’re melee to not get massacred.

    vortex, fast, and jailer are good for anti kiting measures.

    having said all that for the love of god invulnerable minions just feels like a cheap way to make the game hard. i haven’t run into this but if this ever spawned with the “horde” modifier it would be impossible (plus whatever other 2 mods the boss will have in inferno).the other mods make you change your play style and think of a viable strategy to beat the mobs but invulnerable minions is just like “we’ll just make them invincible so you have to skip them.” which isn’t a solution to the problem. that’s like saying instead of wiping my ass i’ll just ignore it when it itches.

  39. What’s worse than invulnerable? Fast on anything that like to run away. Waste 40min chasing them around for a barb with any kind of sensible build? No thanks, No fun.

  40. When I first saw the invulnerable minions affix I was like “wtf that’s new” it’s definately a challenge and I did have to kite a bit on my barb but it wasn’t too bad. Can’t speak for inferno though.
     

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