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Design your dream single player version of D3?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Flux, Nov 23, 2012. | Replies: 9 | Views: 1162

  1. Flux

    Flux Administrator

    Jun 22, 2003
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    Concept I've been kicking around lately, that I'd like to do an article about. But I need more ideas and theories first.

    What would be in your dream single player version of D3? How would the game have to be different from the current game, to make it sustainable and more fun solo?

    Note that this is a whole different single player version of the game. It's not just D3 without the DRM.


    • Unlimited character slots.
    • Shared stash.
    • Much more stash space.
    • Monster Power.
    • Increased quest drops? Say it's like D2, and your first kill on act bosses and some of the big quest bosses are almost a guaranteed legendary drop.
    • Fully moddable.
    • Cheaper gem upgrade recipes? Lower crafting costs? Increased gold drop rate? (There's not enough gold self-found to cover your upgrade needs, in the current version of the game.)
    • item checklist, for the grail. (So you'd have some interface that showed which of each legendary/set you'd ever found.)
    • Changes to some skills, to alter the few that have a bonus to other players?

    I'm sure there are some other bigger changes I'm not thinking of, so curious for feedback agree/disagree.
  2. DZJB

    DZJB IncGamers Member

    Aug 31, 2007
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    1) Unlimited character slots: a must!

    2) Stash space: Yep, won't be stored on the Blizz servers, so your save files could be as big as you'd want. I've been thinking about a solution that wouldn't involve a muling app like we used in D2, and that would have an interface like a flavie report.

    So your stash would consist of 2 parts. One would be a place where you can keep your sweet rare drops, like it is now. And the other would be a huge list ranging from potions to legendaries. Let's say that you've previously found and stashed 5 Vile Wards, you'd see amongst all the possible legendaries an entry of 'Vile Ward (5)'. Click it and a pop up appears (with a stash interface) where you can see your Vile Wards.

    This would be a combination of an item checklist and increased stash. And it could be used for items like potions, gems, legendaries, special items like Leoric's Shinbone and Keys from the keywardens. It would also keep your stash a lot tidier, and you wouldn't have 100 tabs to store tons of items.

    3) Cheaper crafting. Indeed, like you pointed out, you can't upgrade all your gems without using AH income. I don't know if that'll change once you reach higher paragon (and thus higher %GF), but let's say a reduction of ~25% wouldn't hurt. You can't lower it too much because this is the only thing you'll use your gold on.

    I'll think of some more, and might be back later!
  3. Flux

    Flux Administrator

    Jun 22, 2003
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    The gold issue is something I've noticed since v1.05 since you only find flawless gems now. Previously, when maybe half of your gems in inferno were Squares, you could keep up on gold, since those were only 100g for 3 to upgrade. Now that all are flawless, they basically cost 10k each. More actually, if you do the math on the way up. 1/3 of 30k, 1/9th of 50k, 1/27 of 80k, etc.

    As people often point out, one of the great mysteries of D3's economy is that you can BUY higher level gems (non-emeralds) for less than it costs to upgrade them yourself. How are people selling high level gems at a loss? Why? You only see that in RL on Valentine's Day commercials from lying jewelers. (Probably duping is involved, either of gems or maybe 3 socket items with 3 perfect gems, which could then be removed and sold.)

    Anyway, you add crafting onto that and the gold is just insufficient. My highest level char is p26 with about 240% GF, and I think she brings in enough gold to cover my gem upgrading, but I play other chars also who don't have much GF but still find flawless squares. But I can't even think about crafting; I've found 3 of the 6-mod rare recipes lately, including shoulders and gloves, which should be prime crafting options. But they're like 120k each, which is way more expensive than it's worth for the tiny % chance of a useable item result.
  4. Pijus

    Pijus IncGamers Member

    Feb 1, 2008
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    I would have said that drop rates for legendaries need to go up alot, but in 1.0.5 it doesn't seem that bad. The crafting costs need to go down to make it viable in single player. If I had to guess, I'd say it takes me 20-30 minutes to make 120k gold just playing the game. With that I can craft 1 item, and by that time I probably have found an identical base item. Many Palliums drop.

    One thing that really bothers me right now is how if a monster starts his swing, he seems to always hit, even if I'm half a screen away. On the screen, his claw hits the air, but the game counts it as a hit. I can understand this for an online game. I think in singleplayer monsters should have range, and it should be low enough that you can escape their blows without vault or teleport.

    There definitely needs to be infinite stash space, wether through some sort of ingame vault, or through a muling application. Personally I think it would be really cute if Runic released an official muling application for Torchlight2.

    To be honest, I'm not sure I'd want to play D3 in singleplayer even with these changes. Sure you can play through the game with the 5 classes, but then what? Endlessly run act3 to get incremental upgrades for your characters? The way the skills, attributes and items are now, new item finds don't unlock new builds very well.

    Now that I think of it, speculating gems on the auction house is kind of fun for me.
  5. SincereX13

    SincereX13 IncGamers Member

    Jun 21, 2003
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    I would get rid of respecs. I loved planning out a character from beginning to end and seeing it through. Or when you find that super rare item that would be perfect for X build, and that when you found that item you would start on that build right away. That is probably not just a single player complaint but it still fits.
  6. BaronScarpia

    BaronScarpia IncGamers Member

    Oct 26, 2011
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    I like big posts so - no tag this time, you're warned...

    I don't like the design philosophy - somehow it assumes you're buying d2 items from black market. Check the d2 strategy forums on inc gamers - I dare you...

    > Done? Ok...

    The forum with more viewers is the SPF. (And, somehow, I know I won :p )

    After over 10 years (or so - see "break" sections, if any) playing D2, I never got all unique items - I know because, while a couple unique items are like trash to me, I never got a Ty-might (Tyreal, not Tyler Durden). Instead of letting all my rant flows like a river, let's stick to Flux wantings...

    *Unlimited character slots - I wouldn't say "unlimited". 20 sounds about right. I killled a lvl 60 female WD to be able to create a HC char - still alive - and to delete a Staff of Herding plan.

    * Shared stash - mandatory. Unless we're in some sort of challenge and/or choose a untwinked playstyle.

    *Unlimited character slots - It is a item hunting game, right? Well, I wouldn't ask unlimited space to blizz on server side for my trash rares, stuff I would like to keep anyway, vacation movies, etc. I would ask for space to keep one copy of every item I feel like "collecting" and more. Since it wouldn't be reasonable to ask for unlimited space on server side for every player, offline SP mode for us...

    *MP - as good as it sounds. I levelled all my chars before 1.05 - I think. After you reached a breakpoint in the game, it's necessary. The rewards ain't enough nowadays - tip: Alkaizer runs at MP0 are never wrong, excep for keys...

    *Quest drops: I miss bugged quest Andy dropping 1 soj/weekend. Other than that, I just fell that bosses should have that something else else - like big D and Baal being the only ones giving the player XP at lvl 99.

    *Fully moddable - not RMAH friendly. I have this big post about Diablo and Mods:
    http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?841532-Diablo-3-x-Diablo-2-Reality-Tunnel <- click on me Flux...

    *Cheaper gem upgrade recipes? Lower crafting costs? Increased gold drop rate? (There's not enough gold self-found to cover your upgrade needs, in the current version of the game.) - Long one... Cheaper gem upgrade recipes - yes, plz. Lower crafting costs - I would trade the blacksmith for any mystic that could add sockets to my item any day. Increased gold drop rate - If every item was like IK armor or witching hour - with some randomness, but not randomness "D2 Crown of Ages random", that can turn an unique into trash, ok.

    *Item checklist - an achievement list for self-found items would help.

    *Skill bonuses for other players - I had to log in into public games to give mantra bonuses X times for strangers and get all mon achievements. Other than that, I really don't need a cut on other player bonuses to give me more bonuses... Other players are like gargatuans with potions, anyway :p (I'm kidding - but not before 1.0.5.:nono:. Thx guys, for clearing the game for my wizard)

    In the end of the day, I really don't like some changings being made to kill bot operations or not being made to avoid making monk players unhappy.

    An thanks Flux, for keeping the site around!

  7. Flux

    Flux Administrator

    Jun 22, 2003
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    More skills allowed. I guess that comes under modding, but I was just playing a new Wizard build tonight and it was very effective, but got boring after a while since I only had 2 offensive skills: Hydra and Arcane Torrent. So my entire play was seeding Hydras ahead and then Torrent blasting anything that got closer, with Diamond Skin for occasional defensive emergency use. The other 3 skills were just buffs.

    Fairly typical build in D3, but I so enjoyed three-tree Sorcs in early days of D2 and D2X, when you had to use something like: Frozen Orb, Meteor, and Charged Bolt for your attacks, more or less cycling through them, plus situational Frost Nova, Teleport, Glacial Spike, Lightning Storm, Frost Armor, etc. That's not so many more skills than you use in D3, but D2 allowed (required, before synergies) two or three tree builds to get around immunities and resistances, and I so loved the very fast fingers and constant casting of different skills for different circumstances. You never get to do that in D3, at least not on Inferno, and you never *need* to do it. But what if you had like, 8 or 10 skills allowed?

    A clever mod maker would have to rebalance and such, to keep chars with like 5 defensive buffs from being untouchable, but I don't even really care about that. So what if it's too easy, or not perfectly balanced? It's SP; you can cheat at solitaire if you want. I just want the ability to play a char with 4 or 5 or 6 offensive skills, all of which I'm using constantly. And not just for different colors, as we get a lot of in D3. I want to actually need to vary my attacks, as if the monsters had resistances and/or immunities.
  8. PandadudeSP

    PandadudeSP IncGamers Member

    Nov 15, 2008
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    I think a lot of the necessary changes kinda depend on what kind of replayability is required of the game.
    1-2 clears/hardcore attempts at the game and then quitting aka torchlight is more casual with high drop rates, overpowered crafting, limited stash space, basic itemization. This isn't necessarily a flaw in torchlight, its just the audience its targeting.

    D2LoD with atma was made a for a small non-casual community and this is reflected in its design: Lower drop rates, and chances of good crafts but with bigger possible rewards (eg. low level set/unique items can be BiS, wolfhowl and several others open up the possibility of a new playstyle.), unlimited hoarding, no respecs, theorycrafting/optimization.

    I personally prefer the latter, but I assume the general population doesn't so there wouldn't be much profit in it.

    In general though d3 single player needs to lose a difficulty level, hell and inferno feel too similar now that good rares are dropping like candy (good compared to what is needed for mp0 play) and with MP level you could just personally tune hell to be a "harder" difficulty. 4 content replays is too much imo. Legendary items should be more static with less random properties and their drop rates should be higher. Then just look at my above comments for tuning it to a specific audience.
  9. Thyiad

    Thyiad Moderator Single Player, D2 Assassin, Barbarian

    Mar 3, 2006
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    I'd like to see:

    - LAN play.
    Everyone forgets that a major part of the SPF is Multi Play with other SPFers; people they know don't always want to do stuff the easiest way. LAN or TCP/IP play would enable those behind firewalls (players at military station or university students) to MP with other players.
    - A greater storage which isn't necessarily linked between all characters. ATMA/GoMule muling utilities is one of the major reasons SP is so popular because most of us are pack-rats.
    - Ability to up the Monster power as high as we want.
    - Quest drops for the first kill was a great idea as a "wow you did it" reward.
    - In built grail tracking the way the achievements are, would be superb.

    I wouldn't want to see:
    - Changes to skills.
    As I've said, we do MP and it would be a mistake to remove the advantages of those skills. Generally I like any offline game to be the same as online - but without the griefing/aggro/kiddies. :D
    - Mod-making ability.
    There are other forums which mod-make and generally it's a short hand for 'cheating' which is why the SPF has never supported mod-making or allowed discussions on the subject. Unless someone is modding so much that they're effectively making a new game (see Laz's D2 mod Median), it's not something I want to see because it effectively splits the knowledgebase/community.

    Generally I play SP because I want to play legitimately; I want the online functionality but without the associated annoyances of chat/gold seller spam, theives, griefing and the ability to afk randomly. That afk-inability is one thing which I really dislike about most online games.
  10. TheReadMenace

    TheReadMenace IncGamers Member

    Oct 28, 2007
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    Lots of the above ideas are good ones. I'll add one or two of my own and also emphasize the ones I really like.

    -Offline play
    ...and then TCP/IP. As you [Flux] have discussed many times with your podcast guests, multiplayer games aren't given enough incentive to warrant playing with random others. Y'all make it sound like everyone's either going solo or playing with friends. So if the random MP scene is a ghost town, why are we all required to play through b.net? I've since grown accustomed to needing an Internet connection to play, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't play offline if I ever want/need to. Implementing TCP/IP from there is only natural. It allows those of us in the community to play with each other if we choose.

    The added bonus is that players aren't segregated by which server they play on, so you can enjoy some game time with anyone and everyone you want. I play on EU 99.8% of the time; while I CAN go over to NA freely, my characters can not. I haven't gotten all these paragonz for nothing, so it'd take a heck of a lot for someone to convince me to invest many hours just to get another Monk to 60 when I already have two on EU.

    Also, if the game were to end up running client- instead of server-side, we'd probably be able to learn the nuts and bolts about the one system that I want to know most: item generation. How does the game determine if a legendary ilvl63 chest armor is one of six or eight different items? What are the odds that I'll roll an Oculus ring over a Stone of Jordan? Is it the same probability for an item to roll strength vs. crit chance vs. thorns? These are questions that keep me awake until 2am.

    -Larger, compartmentalized stash size
    Remember Blizzcon when Jay Wilson said the stash size would be bigger than we'd ever need? Ahh... what a kidder! After having access to secondary muling programs in D2 with practically infinite space, I was wary of that statement immediately. Seeing the five tabs initially made me upset initially; watching it get further reduced to three made me curse Blizzard for two or three days straight. Packrats like us want to hold onto every item of interest, and as it stands we can't even hold onto half the set & legendary items. 'Tis sad.

    However, it'd be nice if every character had their individual stash for all the items and gold they acquire, but there was also a grander stash that you could add to or pull from at will. This way you could keep everything separate if you choose. It's very off-putting in D3 to create a new character only to see millions of gold and a full set of godly gear waiting for them. It's as though Cain set aside a few things for the coming apocalypse...

    -Downplay the AH, initiate item trading
    Gold's a great currency if it's still got value. When I was still adamantly against the AH up until a week ago (welcome me to the dark side!), I was waiting for an improved crafting system (or some plans for set items), so there wasn't much left to do besides upgrading gems. And without the plans for THOSE, my gold stash kept increasing without any real use.

    So why not set up a system within the game where you can made trade requests? Third party sites exist for trading, including our own trade forums here with incgamers, but Blizzard wants their players to remain in-game as much as possible. So cater to your fan base and make a set of user profiles that only your friends can access (think: Steam) where you can post items you've got up for trade and the items you'd want in return. Then you can set up a TCP/IP game and swap out some gear.

    (I guess in a way, I'm advocating for guilds in the current b.net version of D3.)

    -The same content, regardless of what mode you play
    Admittedly, this sounds stupid without context. But as a long time D2 player, there was nothing more infuriating than how the ubers and certain runewords were omitted from the single player experience. If D3 were to ever get an offline/single player mode, I'd want to have all the same benefits and challenges that b.net players would have. I paid the same price, so it's only natural I'd be able to have the same experiences.

    -Modding? ...Maybe
    I'm sitting here trying to come up with reasons why it'd be a good idea. Perhaps I'm not creative enough. I've got two reasons why I'm not dismissing them outright: Torchlight and WoW. Modding in WoW led to some wonderful UI additions, some of which are deemed necessary by certain crowds. As for Torchlight... well, it wasn't a perfect game initially having been made so quickly, but some of the mods that changed out certain mechanics (more stash chests, increasing potion/scroll stack sizes, increasing difficulty, and allowing for health/mana steal from skills come to mind) allowed players to customize the game to suit their needs. When it comes to D3, I'm hard pressed to come up with any mods that would make me enjoy the game more. ...Besides increased stash space, anyway... But with that said, I would wager that there'd be a mod or two that may catch my eye.

    I must add (perhaps needlessly) that mods gave D2 some longevity that some players needed after they got tired of the base game. The only example needed would be Brother Laz's contributions. His investments completely changed the face of the game and gave people an entirely new reason to revisit D2. The fact that D3 will never have something like that is kind of sad. So while I have no inclination to use mods were it possible at this time, the fact that potentially awesome mods can never exist is kind of sad.

    -Increased set/legendary item drop rates
    ...At least a little. I'm not saying I want to be able to find every item after a month of dedicated playing, but as it stands I can still play for hours and see absolutely nothing. In D2, I could do ten Ancient Tunnels runs while waiting for a pizza to cook and I'd likely see at least one green or gold item (never mind if it was one of a million Isenhart's Cases). 1.0.5 seems to be kinder to us in this regard, but drop rates are still based on how the AH is a persistent mechanic where one can [in theory] get any item at a moment's notice. People who use it receive its benefits; those who choose to disregard it get the short side of the stick.

    Perhaps a topic more for how to improve the game itself rather than a single player mode, but my dream game would have faster, more efficient MF targets/runs. Getting up to five stacks for maximum MF potential takes as long to do as those ten AT runs, and then I have to do even more running to put those stacks to good use. MF runs take too long and still feel like they give little benefit other than getting closer to another paragon level. Was there anything wrong with D2's system? Run bosses if you want, run alvl85 areas if you want, run Pindle in thirty seconds for low odds at practically everything, run the Council or the Countess for runes... you had options. Nowadays, a single run will force you to go through half a bleedin' act. And if you're not super decked out with awesome gear, that's a long stint filled with tedium and disappointment more often than not.

    -Buff the followers
    Again, not a crazy amount, but make them stronger than they are now. If you're never going to have a human player back you up in single player, give the computer allies a bit more beefiness to make up for it. I'm pleased that their survivability has been increased in recent patches, but their power has been disregarded entirely.

    ...There's probably more general improvements I'd like to see (mainly tighten up legendary mods and give me a reason to want them again), but this is surely a big enough wall of text to keep you occupied. That said, if you wanna throw any more ideas at me/us for an article or two, I'd love to hear them. And if you need someone on the podcast to talk about Monks and how boring/awesome/tanky/one-note/underpowered they are, you've got at least one potential candidate willing to share their thoughts.

    Good luck, Flux. Hope your project turns out well. Big fan of the 'cast, so I'm always on the lookout for an hour of distraction at work! :p


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