Wyatt Cheng on The Pace of Diablo 3 Combat


Wyatt Cheng dropped an article-length explanation about how they’re looking to adjust the pace of play to vary the style and function of the game.

I was reading in some posts about a slower paced game style and having to use defensive styles to a greater depth. Can somebody explain?
Wyatt Cheng: Let’s talk about combat.

From a big picture standpoint, it’s not healthy for the game when a player’s health pool goes from full to nearly empty and back to full on a regular basis very quickly, over and over, during regular play. I know not every character build plays this way – but I would assert that it’s not good for the game when this is a dominant or even common way to play.

Why?

Here are a few negative effects it has:

1. A health pool that quickly goes from full to nearly empty implies that there’s not a lot of room for variance in incoming damage. When incoming damage is that high, a 15% increase in monster damage would result in death. This leads to comments like “As soon as I turn up the Monster Power I get 1-shot”. I’d like to see a game where a clever player can handle a higher Monster Power by reducing incoming damage through good play. Unfortunately, if the combat pacing and dominant builds are such that all players are geared to survive the biggest possible hit from a monster and instantly heal to full then there’s no room for that differentiation.

Let’s use DiabloWikiMortar as a simple example.

Click through for the rest of the post; this is only point #1 and there are 4 more of them, so lots of absorb.

If a wave of mortar hits takes me from full to nearly dead, and then I instantly heal back to full, then mortars don’t pose a realistic threat to me. In this state, there’s no way for a clever player (who wants to dodge mortars) to differentiate themselves from somebody who doesn’t care (and just decides to get hit). In both cases you’re healing instantly to full and surviving through the damage no matter what, and in both cases turning up the monster power results in you dying no matter what if you take a single mortar wave. It becomes a pure gear check.

2. For players who push the MP up anyways, it makes the game feel like it was designed around one-shots. In my previous example with mortar, some of you may be thinking “There’s room for turning up the Monster Power, just don’t get hit at all!”. This isn’t great either. It means my death feels very binary. One moment I’m at full health, the next instant I’m dead. It also means that once you decide you are going to accept being one-shot, you don’t care about your health at all. Who cares if you have 20K or 40K health if you’re going to die either way? We’d be in a better place if the mortar-dodger was allowed to take the occasional hit, but can handle a higher monster power as long as a majority of them are dodged.

3. Healing very rapidly back to full also loses all the fidelity of small attacks. If players are regularly going from full to nearly empty and back to full again on a regular basis, then there’s no room for mechanics which act as a slow drain on your health. Plagued is a great example of this. We don’t want Plagued to be something that kills you quickly, but it also shouldn’t be something you ignore forever. Standing in a pool of poison should be something that adds tension to the fight. You know you’re not going to die now, but you can see the threat looming. When healing rates are very high, there is no room for the slow drain damage sources – they become insignificant.

4. My current health loses meaning. Being at 95% health should mean you’re relatively safe. Being at 5% health should mean you’re almost dead. Being at 50% health should mean you’re somewhat in danger and you should play it safe, but as long as you do you should be fine. These are all concepts that make intuitive sense. Unfortunately, they are not at all true in the current Diablo environment. When health pools are rapidly going from empty to full and back again, these health values all blur together.

5. You lose a lot of tactical combat opportunities. Tactical combat requires that the player can properly assess the situation and react accordingly. When your health pool moves up and down rapidly you are no longer reacting to dangers. A rapidly changing health globe means you are playing in a predictable pattern and crossing your fingers hoping that you live through it. You are playing in a way that avoids situations that will instantly kill you, but there’s no tension associated with being low on health that would cause you to make a tactical decision to change your play pattern.

I’m saying all of this without pointing at any specific solutions. That’s because there are no instant-fix solutions. It’s a challenging problem that we’re actively working on. Things aren’t going to be perfect overnight, but improving the pacing of combat is something we constantly work on.

I will say that the first line of defense is reducing the rate at which players heal. After we pull in the rate of healing, next we analyze the patterns in which monsters deal damage. Ultimately, defensive stats will play a role in all of this. If some life regeneration, damage mitigation or (gasp) life on hit lets me play a little more aggressively, that’s a good thing.

He doesn’t mention incentives or punishments, which I think could be a big deal. As we know, for non-HC players, the death penalties in D3 are negligible. If the devs think it’s a problem that players gear all for DPS and don’t care about being one-shotted once in a while, I can think of an easy way to alter that behavior — by making it matter if you die. Since gold isn’t a real incentive at this point, and docking exp D2-style is way too harsh for today’s casual-friendly video games… how about each death knocks off a DiabloWikiNephalem Valor stack? You can’t go to negative values, but something like that would certainly influence players to take the health system a bit more seriously.

I’m curious what you guys think of that concept, since I really don’t know. I’ve been playing exclusively Hardcore for months, so much of Wyatt’s post was totally outside my frame of reference. In HC, no one runs with gear that puts them at risk of being one-shotted, or in a style that has their health regularly dropping to 5% — at least no one does it that way for long…

That said, I guess the basic principle does exist in Hardcore. It’s just that we gear up a lot better on Vit and Res and play on MPs we can handle, so instead of yo-yoing from 5% to 100%, we yo-yo from 50% to 100%. Thus the “empty-or-full” paradigm is the same, there’s just a larger margin for error.

I don’t find this a terrible state of affairs though, so I’m not sure I agree with Wyatt on the need for structural change. What do you guys think? Is it more obvious in the all-or-nothing Softcore style he’s referencing?

Comments

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  1. This is very much the case in softcore. I just started up D3 again after the RoS announcement, but even on my puny monk with 70k dps I notice this problem. A week ago I was playing very defensively (as I did HC before I stopped playing last year) because i had no LoH, LaK, and nearly no + life from globes and pots, and I hate dying even without any real punishment.

    Then I bought some new fists the other day, with some of those stats, and now all I do is stand in the middle of the fray hoping that the healing will keep me alive. In the process i lost lots of AR and Vit (about 20k HP in total), but hey, why should I care?

    I was kind of surprised really. I remember reading before launch that they didn’t want to have any lifesteal present in D3, due to this exact problem. Now here we are… It’s fun at first, but I agree with Wyatt that it is rather dull over time.

  2. wyatt talks about clever player, that wants to do better but dodging mortars. well, i think i am fairly clever player, and lets up this from Mortar to rushing bulls in fields: clever player doesn’t wears enough EHP “to survive the biggest possible hit from a monster”. he wears only for such hits, that can’t be avoided through “clever play” πŸ™‚ and that is really easy to make with WW barb πŸ˜€ low life, high dps, sometimes you don’t dodge soon enough and die…

    but, overall, i guess i am not categorically against system they are trying to create…we will see

    captcha: live free

  3. I don’t mind losing a couple of NV for dying, or even adding little other negative effects to make the SC players (myself) care more about NOT dying and defensive atributes.

    If you die you could:
    – Lose money to repair (already ON)
    – Get some sort of 15-20 seconds debuff to damage, etc.
    – Losing one or two NV stacks.
    – Lose exp, this one is tricky, but with no paragonLv cap i don’t see as a huge problem, maybe losing 1-2% EXP isn’t that bad, if you dying 2,3,4 times in a short time frame, maybe that means you need more def or lower ur MP.

    Things i hate and hope never happens when you die:
    – Reset monster’s HP (thank god we cutted that out from the game)
    – Losing 5%+ Exp per death (there are some games you lose that or more…there is a limit)
    – Losing more money on repairs than gaining playing (as we had before, with higher repair cost).
    – 30 secs + debuffs, Like in wow, i think you get 1 or 2 minutes debuff if you choose to ress with that angel thing..at least i remember it was something like that.

    Sry about my english.

    • In the current state of the game the penalty for softcore death should be a period of reduced magic find. No one is logging on to just kill monsters for fun.(Right?) Players want loot and handicapping our ability to procure it would seem a fitting punishment for death in my eyes. But the game devs seem adverse to doling out punishment (even awarding dead HC exp to paragon 2.0 SMH).

      Bliz asks “why”. Why do our players favor extreme DPS at the sake of EHP? Clearly gearing all-out DPS is the most efficient way to farm the open world for drops. With RoS on the way that will no longer be the case with the inclusion of loot runs, nef trials, ect. In the expac if you die you might not get to come back to finish off those demons for the drops. Instead of punishment they have created a system that rewards player for not dying.

  4. Losing a NV stack is probably the best way to go. It may seem like just an annoyance but it’s a big deal if you’re purposely trying to kill a keywarden or the like and die. (to which I’m guilty of dying to Sarkoth often)

  5. Most deaths in this game are from BS, not a legitimate player mistake. Even SC glass cannons very rarely actually die as long as they can control their character, just if they lose control for even a short time boom dead.

    The difference between SC and HC:

    HC characters gear so they can survive autonomously for a much longer timeframe.
    HC characters do less dps, and therefore cannot use lifesteal as effectively.
    HC characters play on much lower MPs, so that lifesteal is both much less required and much less meaningful (on MP 1 you get something like 300-500 life per enemy back assuming 3% lifesteal… if they hit you once then die that’s a losing trade).

    However they still encounter the same, wildly inconsistent difficulty. Just, instead of the hard situations meaning instant death, they mean your life bar actually moves.

    Making death more punishing is fine in games where it’s actually the player’s fault, in a game where you cannot hardly influence combat by your own actions and even if you completely pass the gear check you can still die on MP 1 in certain situations…

    As it is most deaths in the game are chain cc, lag, or move out of attack and get hit anyways type deals.

    • “…in a game where you cannot hardly influence combat by your own actions…”

      Hyperbolic as usual.

      But yes, please remove the autohits, undodgeable attacks, and giant hitboxes.

      • It’s funny, I was actually happy about the inaccurate hit boxes during beta, because I assumed that we’ll be able to zip past enemies easily like in D2, thereby dodging all damage. In hindsight I think the devs went overboard with this in D3. In relation to the enemies we can’t move as fast as we could in D2, so more accurate hit detection would be much welcome.

  6. The only downside to losing NV stacks is that if you get to the act boss and clear everything before that. If you die at this point, there would be no way to regain NV stacks for the next attempt.

    • Why would losing a stack (or stacks, if you failed more times) dying to an act boss really matter? Losing one dying to an Uber would be really annoying, though. Maybe turn it off there, and/or on all quest bosses?

      Not that I’m not floating that like the brilliant solution to all problems, and not that I think there’s any chance they’ll actually implement any kind of death penalties. (Diablo 3 seems to be built to modify behavior through rewards, never punishments.)

      • If they’re more interested in rewards than penalties, then why couldn’t they give an additional NV stack or some separate additional MF bonus after a player gains X amount of experience without dying?

        • Fans had a lot of ideas pre-launch for survival bonuses. Basically after Bliz said no death penalties fans asked for the opposite; bonuses that increased the longer you didn’t die. These would be Softcore only, I suppose. As it turns out the NV stacks are basically what fans were suggesting way back when.

          Seems like that could be combined with the idea for more NV stacks with smaller bonuses pretty well. Say you get up to 20 stacks that are worth 5% each, but you lose one each time you die. And you need at least 5 stacks to qualify for keys and organs to drop. Or diminishing returns, stacks award like 15, 12, 10, 8, 5, 3, 3, 3, 3, etc. So your initial bonuses aren’t much diff than now, but there’s a longer tail to reward longer games.

      • For me, well in a HC mind as I am now, all NV should be reset upon death, no exception.
        It makes sense, it would make uber runs even more meaningful, and the overall experience would be more interesting. Losing Xp and shitloads of money is not a good idea, but this I like.
        Hell, even softcore could be worth it again, if dieing meant something.

  7. It’s so strange how the game they say the wanted to make has always sounded like what I want Diablo to be but the reality came out very different from that.

  8. “Things aren’t going to be perfect overnight […]”

    On launch would have been sufficient. Thanks anyway.

  9. I think that when the AH will be gone gold penalties (through repair costs) after death could become more meaningful, especially if crafting services (including the ones for the Mystic) will still cost the same. Trading will be much more of a hassle, so I think much more people will be crafting, especially if we get better recipes. With real-money trade going away as well most people will probably fall back to earning their gold the good old-fashioned way: by killing things.

    Even if you rely only on ingame methods of gaining gold, the current repair prices are absolutely laughable and won’t ever force players to reconsider their suicidal tactics. Repairing our whole gear for around 50-75k gold after 10 deaths is no cost at all when you can easily farm that amount in minutes. Multiply the cost by 10 and then maybe things will change.

    I also think that losing Nephalem Valor stacks on death is a good idea. I wouldn’t be against losing the whole stack in fact.

    • Another thing they’d said pre-release and then backed out on – repair costs as a very significant death penalty. I think it’s a great idea. Even if AH players have zillions lying around now…now everyone played the AH.

    • Coincidentally, we’ve got a whole pro/con editorial going up later today arguing if gold will retain value in RoS. I say no, Azzure says yes.

  10. Well, this feel like WW crit Barb will take neftbat to the head next. Because WW barb with more than 30+k health is waste of time.

  11. QUOTE

    "...in a game where you cannot hardly influence combat by your own actions..."
    
    Hyperbolic as usual. 
    
    But yes, please remove the autohits, undodgeable attacks, and giant hitboxes.

    No, it really isn’t. If an enemy has a fast attack they have something more like a damage aura than an actual attack. Go anywhere near them, you get hit. So if you think “get out of the fire”, “get away from the thing hurting me”, etc… they get at least 2 more attack rounds off first even though you are actively moving away and that’s if they don’t cc you right back in the fire. People originally tried other methods, they realized this is a game that can be played without ever closing Excel.

    Every single one of my HC deaths was lag, aka cannot control character at all. Most of the SC deaths were cc/chain cc then dead, or forced in damage zone then dead. There’s very, very few that could be legitimately classified as a mistake.

    • Not really as in not hyperbolic? Asides from the loathsome “damage aura”, as you put it, nearly all big attacks can be dodged:

      regular mob examples of the top of my head:
      charging bulls, exploding grotesques, tree pods, sand wasps, suicide fallen, herald arms, morlu meteors, mallot lords…

      and of course the elite mods:
      mortar, molten, frozen, arcane, plagued, desecrated…

      A bunch of the game’s biggest attacks, all dodgeable. So yes, your standard “cannot hardly influence combat” shpeal is tiresomely hyperbolic. We are not nearly as helpless as you always like to make it sound.

      But of course I agree that those times we are helpless at no fault of our own really suck and should be fixed.

      • In addition, clever play can get around a few other mechanics as well. I play Wizard main, and in areas with walls and narrow passages, you can bait out Vortex shots by standing behind walls, almost like a ‘duck-and-cover’ mechanic in shooters. By doing this, you can bait out the Vortex, which drags you to the wall you’re at, not to the Elite.

        That said, I agree with Hazani that chain cc is really terrible. Sometimes against Champion packs with Frozen, they all spam frost balls at the same time, so you can’t get away. Once you’re frozen, they keep spamming the balls, so you just freeze again and again till you die. That kind of chain cc death really does suck, and should be fixed. A possible way would be to make you immune to the same kind of cc for 5-10 seconds after being hit by one of them.

        Finally, I think that Blizzard should seriously tone down the damage that small, fast enemies deal. Special hatred goes towards Act I’s Leapers and Mini-Spiders; they deals as much damage (or even more!) as regular enemies such as Skeletons or Khazra, but are much quicker and harder to hit, and attack much faster. As a result, I find that a horde of Leapers kills me significantly faster than a horde of Khazra, even when I’m not fighting back. I think the damage numbers on enemies like these needs to be halved at least. It is fine, and actually a great idea, to have enemies that do little damage, but attack very quickly and are fast and hard to hit. However, when these monsters deal as much per hit as regular enemies, it just feels broken and badly done to me.

        • Oh good, so I’m not the only one who loathes those leapers….

          (It’s monsters like that that also make me think we need to have stronger CCs. Many Slows in particular are too weak and short.)

      • I’ve played this game. Playing smart, dodging, and avoiding attacks is easy. However, with things like BS perma-freeze and vortex, or some combination thereof, none of it matters. You are going die when perma-frozen in arcane beams or vortexed back into a bunch of crap that you just escaped using escape skills. Player actions not mattering and having no character control is BS. Just one of many, many things wrong with D3.

    • Couldn’t you… maneuver so as to not be in a place where you’re “forced in a damage zone and then dead?”

      Yesterday I was playing on MP5 (which is about what my Monk can handle) and the first few minutes of my play session I happened to run into three sets of champions (skeleton, skeleton archer, ghoul) in more or less the same place in the Festering Woods. Among them, they had 2 desecrator affixes, 2 plagued affixes, 2 frozen affixes, 3 waller affixes, and 3 arcane enchanted affixes. It was the one of the few times I died on an encounter more than once in the last few months, but each time I did, it was because I did something stupid. Knowing that walls were everywhere, I should’ve avoided being walled in by 3 walls + arcane beam + desecrator pool at the same time, and fought out in the open rather than in the narrow Festering Woods walkways. I also should’ve saved Serenity for when I was hemmed in, and tried to not engage the entire pack of enemies while it and Blinding Flash were on cooldown. I also ran out of spirit for Dashing Strike at one point, which killed me. In addition, I accidentally dropped into a few sticky situations by Thunderclap-porting over to enemies I had feared, I should have been more careful. I’m pretty sure that if I was playing more carefully, I could’ve avoided more or less every death I’ve experienced in the 6 months, and that feels relatively rewarding.

  12. I am kind of concerned that this is even being brought up on Blizzard end. If this is a “problem” that blizzard want to fix without doing away with the current stats, they will have to be very careful on expanding the “punishment” for dying in soft core.
    I like your idea of removing valor. I would probably go all the way to if you die in SC then you lose all your stacks, But I am mean.
    The next thing is when would they be implementing a “fix” for this? Pre-RoS or post RoS? It is cool for them to try to keep fixing everything but the main problems with this game but I would have thought this to be low on the list and a possible fix would be a side affect from fixing other problems. But don’t lesson to me, I’m just the voice of reason.

  13. I can’t disagree entirely, but my monk is now at a spot where I can play mp10 in a group and my deaths are based on me not using good tactics. It does make it fun and challenging when you’re close to the level of the monsters you are fighting against, but since there are incentives for you to play higher MP and very little to make you feel bad about it people do it with lesser gear.

    I could see the NV on death, but maybe not from bosses.

  14. It was interesting at first when everyone was still figuring out the game and figuring out how certain things work better with relation to others. life steal seemed really bad when everyone was doing only 5-60k and life on hit seemed to be the dominant affix for healing then people figured out CD/CC which worked really well with life steal when you’re doing 500k damage crits. But now that combat has evolved and now finally stagnated we’ve realized we’re essentially face tanking everything with life steal. I agree that this is not good for interesting game play.
    Skills/spells that are tactical in the sense that barbarians might want to use leap attack or charge to get out of a web of arcane lasers around him became pointless/useless because barbs can just whirl wind through the damage with enough life steal. It’ll be hard for people to go back to respecing their skill set up to include defensive and tactical spells again because we’re so used to having every spell being meant for offensive purposes.
    Another example is wizards, they don’t use time bubble to slow down projectiles or enemies and also wave of force can deflect the projectiles in the time bubble (which is pretty cool imo) but this isn’t necessary. Wizards would only use time bubble for its offensive capability for the 20% increased damage rune. Again players will probably rage and whine when the devs make it so we have to play defensively/tactically and cannot face tank damage because we have the high damage/life steal combo.

  15. Meaningful death penalty is one of those things that has to happen. It is one of the reasons HC is so much more fun than SC – if it wasn’t for disconnects and lag being able to kill you that is.

    I wouldn’t consider losing 1 NV stack to be nearly enough. It is a start, but really, you can get 1 stack back so fast anyway.
    Maybe if you lost all stacks (and maybe only 1 on bosses – though I don’t really see why you couldn’t just lose all there as well.). Then it would be a better start.

    Losing gold is not a good death penalty imo. Some wont care about it, and others can be screwed over royally, if they for example keep losing their last gold, making it impossible to get the gold they need to craft/enchant their gear for better survival for example (I’m already adjusting to the AH-less world!).
    Potentially trapping your players in a downward spiral is not good game design. So other types of death penalties are preferable.

    Death penalties can also be too severe. Sacred 2 had a SC death penalty that was fairly harsh. It basically reset your “NV” stack, building up that NV stack just took ages. Like 10+ hours just to get a reasonable amount, 600+ hours to “max” it). I liked this mechanic quite a bit (would love to see NV turn into something that was a bit more like it), but it kinda meant that SC was nearly like HC. In which case one might wonder “why have both?”.

    Still, more severe death penalties please.

  16. QUOTE

    Not really as in not hyperbolic? Asides from the  loathsome "damage aura", as you put it, nearly all big attacks can be  dodged:
    
    regular mob examples of the top of my head:
    charging bulls, exploding grotesques, tree pods, sand wasps, suicide fallen, herald arms, morlu meteors, mallot lords...
    
    and of course the elite mods:
    mortar, molten, frozen, arcane, plagued, desecrated...
    
    A bunch of the game's biggest attacks, all dodgeable. So yes, your  standard "cannot hardly influence combat" shpeal is tiresomely  hyperbolic. We are not nearly as helpless as you always like to make it  sound. 
    
    But of course I agree that those times we are helpless at no fault of our own really suck and should be fixed.
    
    Attacks that have deliberately oversized hit boxes, if you're even close you get hit:
    
    Trees.
    Molten.
    Bulls (sometimes).
    Mortar.
    Arcane (rarely).
    
    Attacks that just auto hit:
    
    Everything I and you didn't mention just about.
    
    
    In addition, clever play can get around a few other  mechanics as well. I play Wizard main, and in areas with walls and  narrow passages, you can bait out Vortex shots by standing behind walls,  almost like a 'duck-and-cover' mechanic in shooters. By doing this,  you can bait out the Vortex, which drags you to the wall you're at, not  to the Elite. 
    
    It's still a forced flinch, which in hard  fights results in death anyways. Especially vs blues, as they like  staggering their abilities.
    
    
    Finally, I think that Blizzard should seriously tone down the  damage that small, fast enemies deal. Special hatred goes towards Act  I's Leapers and Mini-Spiders; they deals as much damage (or even more!)  as regular enemies such as Skeletons or Khazra, but are much quicker  and harder to hit, and attack much faster. As a result, I find that a  horde of Leapers kills me significantly faster than a horde of Khazra,  even when I'm not fighting back. I think the damage numbers on enemies  like these needs to be halved at least. It is fine, and actually a great  idea, to have enemies that do little damage, but attack very quickly  and are fast and hard to hit. However, when these monsters deal as much  per hit as regular enemies, it just feels broken and badly done to  me.
    
    Those guys are just nuts. MP 1, 1k all res, dead in 2 seconds.
    
    
    Couldn't you... maneuver so as to not be in a place where you're "forced in a damage zone and then dead?"
    
    Keyword is forced. It's not like you deliberately decided what you really needed was a nice fire.
    
    Anyways, all this stuff about everyone go back on low MPs only needs to die in a fire.
  17. QUOTE

    Keyword is forced. It's not like you deliberately decided what you really needed was a nice fire.
    

    I mean, we might be playing a different game but any time I get CCed in an unpleasant way there was generally something I could’ve done to avoid it. Maybe I didn’t do it, maybe I didn’t need to, but there’s a way to avoid more or less anything. Geometry will help with positioning, avoiding vortex, etc. You can always run (I know it’s not efficient, too bad) and wait until there’s a better angle to engage. Even chaincast of vortex or something isn’t horrible, since there’s generally an escape skill that can be used. Even when I’m fighting 3 packs casting waller and arcane beams simultaneously, it’s possible to disengage, kite, pick off stragglers, use movement/invulnerability skills to gain a tactical advantage, etc.

    Unless you’re being one-shot, which I know people aren’t, there’s no way that any of the CC causes enough of a problem that it instagibs you. I mean, this might be a side effect of having EHP be based off of LS, but since I don’t really bother with that sort of thing (LS is nice, but eh), I can generally survive being vortexed into two arcane beams long enough to hit Serenity/Smoke Screen/Teleport/Spirit Walk, etc.

    I’m not saying that forced CC is the way to go, just that I don’t get how it’s that much of a problem. Just do your best to minimize exposure, disengage if you need time to heal, and engage on favorable terms.

    • yeah,you can avoid that in wide areas,but thats not always the case & actually it almost always happens to me in dungeons where there is no place to escape really especially with plague when half of the dungeon floor turns green or when blue mobs spams waller closing both sides of dungeon around you
      and I would like your advice on how to escape a combinations of these 2 with frozen & arcane on a blue mobs even in open area
      (and you can’t avoid running dungeons especially in act 2 where more than 60% is dungeons)

      • In general, my idea is that if I’m in a “danger zone” that I need to escape, I’ve already engaged incorrectly.

        Never, ever engage enemies anywhere where you have nowhere to run, if you are a kiting class/build. If enemies have vortex, always be out of vortex range, and if you can’t, then put geometry between yourself and the vortexer. For wallers, put yourself next to geometry: the resulting wall will always be shorter and easier to run around if it gets curtailed by being near something where a wall can’t appear.

        Beyond that, remember that you are always, always faster than most monsters in the game. If a nasty elite pack spawns at the start of a cramped dungeon with narrow hallways, it is okay to run toward them, and past them. White monsters are easy to kill (usually) and drop health globes/trigger LoH or LS or LaK, and also clog up the ground making it harder for elites to get to you. It is perfectly legitimate to run INTO a group of white monsters to put distance between yourself and the stronger enemies. Almost every map, no matter how cramped, either loops around or has a small geometric area you can use to kite enemies. If there are a few of those 5 seconds apart from one another, you should never be zoned out of one via area-denial affixes. If you are zoned out of everything, just run away and reengage once it is safer.

  18. QUOTE

    I mean, we might be playing a different game but any time I get CCed in an unpleasant way there was generally something I could've done to avoid it.

    For the most part this is my experience as well. People are exaggerating the issue.
    However, it is an issue, even if it only happens rarely.
    Other than maybe changing vortex somewhat, and chain-jails becoming impossible for example, the only thing really needed would be more abilities/runes that can break you out of CC if you make a mistake.

  19. Since I exclusively play a softcore DH, I’ve definitely noticed what Wyatt is talking about. While I’m frantically darting around the screen to avoid attacks (since everything 1-shots me) and corral enemies to make the most of my resource-consuming attacks, most other players I’ve seen just stand in the middle of everything whacking away with little or no player decision or skill aside from keeping their dps high enough to keep them alive through life steal.

    Regarding death penalties, I’ve recently had a similar idea to Flux’. Instead of each death taking away a NV stack, I was thinking a death would only remove the highest stack and subsequent deaths would have no additional effect until the last stack was recovered. My idea would only give a small reward for staying alive which might not be enough to encourage people to care since staying alive would slow them down thus canceling the slight MF bonus of keeping the last stack.

    If Flux’ idea was implemented, I think I would really like it but it would probably mean that I would never be tempted to try hardcore. This is because I’m only interested in the more balanced play style that hardcore requires but I’m actually turned-off by permadeath.

    • yeah I noticed that also on the few multiplayer games I played or on the streams wher most people play barb or other classes and don’t even stop for a second or move away from mobs & usually don’t use defensive skills while I keep kiting the monster on the whole map as a DH

  20. Sorry, not going to read everything everyone else has said (its 3am here), I’m a HC player and i don’t see why if i lose everything when i get killed, SC player’s cant go back to zero exp gained on their current lvl!

    • there is a reason why it is called SOFTcore & why these people don’t play hardcore and that’s usually because they want to enjoy playing & don’t like to get punished
      while you chose to play hardcore knowing you will get punished so you shouldn’t complain & wish for other people to get punish

  21. QUOTE

    If they're more interested in rewards than penalties, then why couldn't they give an additional NV stack or some separate additional MF bonus after a player gains X amount of experience without dying?

    One reason is that it could make longer play sessions much better than short ones.

    Survive for 30 min and you get an buff? Sucks for those who play for less.
    Personally I’m very much for making longer play sessions interesting (like reward exploration etc), but it should preferably happen without screwing over those who play short sessions.

  22. QUOTE

    For the most part this is my experience as well. People are exaggerating the issue.
    However, it is an issue, even if it only happens rarely.
    Other than maybe changing vortex somewhat, and chain-jails becoming impossible for example, the only thing really needed would be more abilities/runes that can break you out of CC if you make a mistake.
    So you aren't "forced" into a few specific skills if you want a CC insurance.

    Either that or gear affixes and/or passives that seriously dent exposure to certain types of CC. Across the choice of tactics, gear, passives, and actives, you should be able to mitigate pretty much everything that’s annoying.

  23. Reflect damage says HI. Remove this affix and the average player will be much less likely to stack lifesteal items and abilities. This affix is beyond retarded. There is no player skill here, it’s a straight gearcheck. And gearing for this affix makes everything else laughably easy. Lifesteal is expensive and I bet people would drop most of it if reflect damage did not exist.

    Globes are basically lifesteal anyway, healing you for doing enough dps.

  24. I don’t understand. If you are getting one-shotted than you need a gear with higher armor and resistance. If you don’t you’re playing a glass cannon. Simple as that. This game has been designed all around gear check you know Wyatt.

  25. QUOTE

    RD turns on and off. Only attack when it's off. Not that hard, just pay attention.

    Dammit, if I can’t hold down right click until all the enemies in the entire game are dead and I have to make a new game, I don’t even want to play anymore. Paying attention? Ain’t nobody got time for that. I just need Blizzard to patch in autopickup and autoidentify for crit Mempos only, and then I can literally tape my mouse button down and go complain on the forums about Jay Wilson’s tree trunk-esque neck while I collect the loot which is rightfully mine.

    • and don’t forget to complain about over powered builds such as wotb ww barbs getting “nerfed”. Gotta love the knee jerk reactions of the general bnet forums. “Oh noes I can’tz just whirl windz all day long I QUIT barbz sux QQ”

    • It’s a damn shame I can’t +1 this post more than once.

    • You think you are being clever, but you are actually supporting my point. When you gear for rd at high damage, the solution is lifesteal plus mitigation that makes everything else trivial.

      “Stop attacking” works fine if you solo, but in group, elites can come in from off screen when others attack them, or players kite reflect elites into you. With 4 affixes on elites rd happens enough that it makes sense to pick gear and/or skills to heal through it.

      • Hey, if everything being trivial is fun for you, go for it.

        Alternately you can turn up the MP dial and stop attacking when you see the giant orange spikes come up.

        • Wyatt made a follow up post. For now, they are changing reflect to do set damage, not as percent of player damage as it stands now. So effectively negative life on hit instead of negative lifesteal. Good change imo.

          Ivan, I think we agree the game should not feel faceroll. My point that I am failing to make is that the way to counter rd makes all the other elites a joke. Rd is out of line, so I feel nerfing the counter to rd (lifesteal) AND removing or modifying rd should go hand in hand.

          • I certainly agree that “the way to counter RD makes all the other elites a joke.” My only point is that, if players would actually pay attention, they could easily survive RD and have RD be as challenging as other elite affixes. The problem is that players see something that means they can’t burst it down in 10 seconds like all other elites, and then complain that it’s “out of line” rather than adjusting to the one thing that makes them think twice about doing crazy damage. While LS is the way to neuter this problem that allows for faceroll, even LS isn’t necessary. But LS is the path of least resistance, so yeah.

            Cheers!

  26. The issue with a debuff that lowers magic find is the behavioral effect it has.

    If you get a debuff for 10 minutes, even if Blizzard remembers to make it last through log outs, people just go AFK for 10 minutes.
    Effective? Yeah maybe. Fun? No.

    Losing NV stacks on the other hand, means that going AFK to wait out your penalty isnt the solution. Instead it is going back out into the world and kill monsters.
    Which makes losing NV, or similar solutions that asks you to build up what was lost, much better mechanically.

    Now instead of a timed buff, you could get for example get X stacks of “anti-NV”, that required you to kill elites to get rid of it. But that is essentially the same as losing existing NV stacks. Only benefit would be that it would still work even if you had no NV stacks to lose.

  27. The problem is they didn’t give any consideration to the visibility of the players.

    This is because every affix combination can spawn together.

    Can’t see shit, captain.

  28. This just sounds like more WoW thought. D2 you got one shot all the time. Act 4 killing izual…lightning dudes would zap you. Mephisto ball of lightning, one shot, kamakazee act 5guys, corpse explosion all.one shot kills. D2 fun was all about monster.density, how MANY could you take on before they all cumulatively killed you with one attack. That was fun! Always plowing through monsters but being careful not to overwhelm yourself

  29. Rather than loosing a NV stack at death, which could be very annoying in certain situations, like ubers and keywardens, I think they should lock your stacks for lets say 2 minutes. This would mean that you still have the 5 stacks and can kill wardens and ubers, but loose the MF and exp bonus they give for the duration of the effect.

    Also, I think the new game modes will give players reasons to go more defensive since dying there will probably either hinder your progress or get you out of there immediately.

    I think removing life teal is one step of getting the combat less glass cannonish and more interesting.

    One other thing they might consider is to increase monster attack speed but reduce dmg. Most monsters don’t even have the time to hit you once, and to counter that they have to deal huge dmg. It’s easier to be strategic when your health goes down more evenly than in chunks. This will also make dodge a more reliable stat to use since the chance of getting unlucky being struck by 10 soft hits is much less than 5 hard ones.

  30. Really…? 15% more or less monster damage? I’m shocked beyond belief that this is the sort of thing this dev team stresses over. Any doubts I might have had about these guys playing D2 are now gone. They’re obviously fresh out of WoW and know next to nothing about D2, and don’t care to make D3 at all like D2. What is all this balance they’re always trying to make with this game? When it comes to PvE the only balance anyone cares about is the drop rates. They keep trying to make PvE some kind of science, or maybe that ‘deep and engaging’ bull they promised before launch. What made combat in D2 Deep and engaging was that it was deeply flawed and broken. You could come up with all sorts of horrible cheap tricks to kill stuff in droves, pretty much instantly and run around 1 shotting bosses.
    And SOMEHOW the game wasn’t broken by it. Because the DROP RATES were balanced for that kind of thing. Combat in a good ARPG is supposed to be like pulling the lever of a slot machine, or smacking a pinata with a stick. Blizzard keeps trying to adjust the slot machine and the pinata and the stick, when they should just focus on the contents within. Stuff like WoTB is SUPPOSED to be in the game. Every class is supposed to be able to make half a dozen or more broken builds to maximize farming potential. Now the Elite monsters are the ones with all sorts of horrible tricks to KILL US.

  31. QUOTE

    Combat in a good ARPG is supposed to be like  pulling the lever of a slot machine, or smacking a pinata with a stick.  Blizzard keeps trying to adjust the slot machine and the pinata and the  stick, when they should just focus on the contents within. Stuff like  WoTB is SUPPOSED to be in the game. Every class is supposed to be able  to make half a dozen or more broken builds to maximize farming  potential. Now the Elite monsters are the ones with all sorts of  horrible tricks to KILL US.
    Disagreeing more with this wouldn't be humanly possible.
    
    
    Rather than loosing a NV stack at death, which could be very annoying in certain situations
    But...
    It is supposed to be annoying to die. Or at least it should be.
    Hell, it should be more than annoying.
  32. QUOTE

    I mean, we might be playing a different game but any time I get CCed in an unpleasant way there was generally something I could've done to avoid it. Maybe I didn't do it, maybe I didn't need to, but there's a way to avoid more or less anything. Geometry will help with positioning, avoiding vortex, etc. You can always run (I know it's not efficient, too bad) and wait until there's a better angle to engage. Even chaincast of vortex or something isn't horrible, since there's generally an escape skill that can be used. Even when I'm fighting 3 packs casting waller and arcane beams simultaneously, it's possible to disengage, kite, pick off stragglers, use movement/invulnerability skills to gain a tactical advantage, etc.

    Usually I see 1-3 bull**** things per run that result in a death or near death (Why so many… because Wizards have melee skills and bad skills, that’s why). I had one run where I had 1-3 PER ELITE. Walls spammed DIRECTLY on my character, then desecrate spam while I could not move in any way (even if my Wizard was in fact a Barb, with perma wrath, walls don’t care). Immediate Vortex on Arcane turret head. Knockback or fear straight into Mortar volley for the instant death, vortex into molten bomb, vortex into frozen, knockback into fear into frozen… it was a giant exercise in showing off every way the game could 100 > 0 you without you having any ability to influence or control the outcome at all, literally, NOTHING, your controls are locked type deal so better hope your numbers > theirs or you die. Sometimes, it’d try the exact same thing in the exact same fight TWICE, and I’d get saved by more BS (the wall trick? Happened twice, same elite, second time Knockback punted me through the wall and out).

    I wish I were making this up or being “hyperbolic”.

    1k all res, Blur? Mobs don’t care.

    After this run I said **** this, I don’t care it’s spammy, I don’t care it hurts to play, THIS HURTS MORE. I stopped trying to find alternatives, which struggled in content that should be trivial for me and went standard CM. The BS didn’t stop, but my ability to ignore it went way the hell up. And even though my listed dps went down by a quarter my actual dps went way up, because as you might expect when you have a game all about crits and procs and a class with only a few skills that play off this dynamic… trying to find other skills worth using is… an exercise in nerdrage inducing.

  33. It’s not that I don’t really believe you, because I can see HOW these things can happen. I just don’t really feel like they happen to me that often. Sure, sometimes I get two walls placed on top of me and end up dying before I can escape skill out. But that’s like, once a week if not less often than that. Maybe it’s because I’m playing on an MP setting where I don’t die instantly. Maybe it’s because I put amethysts in my helms and on some of my gear. Maybe it’s because I’m hyper-wimpy and would rather retreat than die, even if it means kiting for 3 screens and engaging elites one at a time. But I don’t even remember the last time I got vortexed twice in 5 seconds – usually one and I spam everything to GTFO so I don’t die.

    Which, again, isn’t really an excuse for the control-removing things to exist. But I guess my point is, I occasionally do get vortexed onto an arcane sentry or feared into eating a full mortar volley. But that doesn’t kill me. Maybe if that happens 3 times in a row, it might, but it never does. So I don’t really mind that much.

    You might say, well, if it doesn’t kill you, hurr durr push the MP level higher. But the problem is, it takes too long for me to kill things on MP levels higher than the ones I play on. (Too long != your 15-30 second threshold, too long for me = >2 mins per mob.) But at a level where I can kill one elite pack per minute or so, I definitely don’t end up dying even from a string of bullcrap CC luck.

  34. As a side note – is that “wall directly on you and now you’re stuck” think a bug or am I doing something wrong? I never hear anyone mention it but it probably annoys me more than anything else when it does happen.

    • It’s a bug, one that was supposed to be fixed already. Now at least you can run towards both ends of the wall, in the past you got completely stuck.

    • I was perfectly stuck in the center of a + shaped wall the other day; 2 overlapped perfectly atop me. But that’s the only time in memory. All the other times I can run one direction or the other. Not always the direction that *looks* like it should be clear, but trying to escape in every direction always works.

  35. If the devs want to make game mechanics more strategizable then they need to look at things such as: chain knock backs, casting interruption; combos such as horde +arcane, mortar, etc. Or freezing, plague, arcane. There are too many situations where strategizing and clever play will never beat these mechanics and only a gear check/proper build could beat

  36. incentives or punishments? lulz..like blizz has a choice in the matter. blizz punishing d3 players is like asking to have a full scale riot on their hands. OTOH, incentives appears to keep the great unwashed salt-free.

  37. Blizzrd seems intent on pushing us into ‘this is how you play boxes’. If that’s the case just give us all the same gear and all the same character builds (oh, hang on). I play DH main on MP10 and yes, I die alot (I would argue not always my fault), I could play and survive on lower MP but when the other 4 characters seem to dominate MP10 I think, ‘well, why not me, too’.

    I tried upping my All res to a point where I think I’ll last longer and it made no difference to survivability. If I wanted to play a tank DH build then I’d have to lower my DPS so much to probably get kicked from games for not contributing.

    Isn’t HC for having a build that doesn’t get you killed. It’s called softcore for a reason, why punish us for playing the way we like.

  38. Giving players incentive not to die would be far better than punishing them if they do die. Things like the idea for reduced MF is terrible in my opinion, all that does is make you not want to play until the debuff is gone. Making a person not want to play the game for X amount of time is not the way to make them avoid dying (unless you’re playing hardcore of course, but that’s an entirely different play style), you should make them want to play more by giving them rewards for not dying. Things like nephalem valor that give you bonuses for killing elites is good, this could and should be expanded into some kind of reward system for playing well. Losing NV on death is fine, you just go out and kill to get it back. Having, say, 5-10 minutes of reduced magic find would just mean that the player goes afk for 5-10 minutes while the timer ticks down, maybe not even caring enough to play by the time they get back. Any penalties need to be balanced around the fact that you do not want to take the player away from the game.

  39. Wyatt talks about combat being “binary”… That’s because it was designed that way by him, and all the other developers at Blizzard. Now they want to slow players down, but attempting to do so without providing incentives for intelligent play is just making farming less efficient.

    Why is everyone building to health tank everything? because its the fastest way to play he game. Dodging, kiting, and being tactical gives zero reward. The barb is the best character in the game for this exact reason. He(or she) can just stand there tanking everything while putting out constant AoE damage. Even if that damage is less then other classes, it is continuous, and therefore better. This is the exact same reason Demon Hunters are terrible even though their DPS is theoretically superior.

    If lucrative rewards are put into the game for not dying it would fix a lot of problems, but not all. The combat, and “item hunt” systems in D3 inherently encourage a specific style of play.

  40. QUOTE

    Hey, if everything being trivial is fun for you, go for it.
    
    Alternately you can turn up the MP dial and stop attacking when you see the giant orange spikes come up.
    
    You ARE aware that in the vast majority of cases stop attacking =/= stop dealing damage right?
    
    Between projectiles, DoTs, and persistent area effects there's very few attacks that do stop on demand.
  41. I cannot believe what I am reading on this board. Is this the same group who thought the AH was a bad idea? I am losing all faith in the Diablo fanbase. People are really overthinking this game. LIVE LONG AND KILL!!! The game needs more life leech not less and more AoE. Less death and certainly no penalties. Now we have to remind people of what D3 was like at release just like how D2 did not have the customization and diversification that people imagine it did.

  42. QUOTE

    It's a bug, one that was supposed to be fixed  already. Now at least you can run towards both ends of the wall, in the  past you got completely stuck.
    
    In my case I just got stuck.
    
    
    It's not that I don't really believe you, because I can see HOW these things can happen. I just don't really feel like they happen to me that often. Sure, sometimes I get two walls placed on top of me and end up dying before I can escape skill out. But that's like, once a week if not less often than that. Maybe it's because I'm playing on an MP setting where I don't die instantly. Maybe it's because I put amethysts in my helms and on some of my gear. Maybe it's because I'm hyper-wimpy and would rather retreat than die, even if it means kiting for 3 screens and engaging elites one at a time. But I don't even remember the last time I got vortexed twice in 5 seconds - usually one and I spam everything to GTFO so I don't die.
    
    Which, again, isn't really an excuse for the control-removing things to exist. But I guess my point is, I occasionally do get vortexed onto an arcane sentry or feared into eating a full mortar volley. But that doesn't kill me. Maybe if that happens 3 times in a row, it might, but it never does. So I don't really mind that much.
    
    You might say, well, if it doesn't kill you, hurr durr push the MP level higher. But the problem is, it takes too long for me to kill things on MP levels higher than the ones I play on. (Too long != your 15-30 second threshold, too long for me = >2 mins per mob.) But at a level where I can kill one elite pack per minute or so, I definitely don't end up dying even from a string of bullcrap CC luck.
    
    Mortars = 13k each, x 3-5 per volley, x 3-4 mobs. Yeah...
    
    Thing is, going by the metric of "if you can die quickly, MP is too high" only Barbs/Monks can even do MP1, everyone else is 2 seconded by Scavengers or 2 shotted by Savage Beasts.
    
    Except other classes can do MP1 and higher, they just die on damage spikes.
    
    Incidentally, I nerdraged a lot about walls recently. Apparently an xpac item lets you smash them.
    
    Obvious troll?
  43. QUOTE

    In my case I just got stuck.
    
    
    
    Mortars = 13k each, x 3-5 per volley, x 3-4 mobs. Yeah...
    
    Thing is, going by the metric of "if you can die quickly, MP is too high" only Barbs/Monks can even do MP1, everyone else is 2 seconded by Scavengers or 2 shotted by Savage Beasts.
    
    Except other classes can do MP1 and higher, they just die on damage spikes.
    
    Incidentally, I nerdraged a lot about walls recently. Apparently an xpac item lets you smash them.
    
    Obvious troll?
    
    Okay, I don't get it. I mean seriously, today I was chain frozen in a hallway by champion bats with desecrator, and managed to eat 2 separate waves of freeze bombs and being in a desecrator pool on MP5 for about 2 seconds while Serenity was on cooldown. I didn't go below about a third of my health. Still not dying on damage spikes, unless I happen to already be at low health and run into a damage spike. I'm not really even arguing anymore, I'm just confused - are you really getting 2-shotted by a basic savage beast attack on MPX?
    
    Re: the other post - if you somehow instagib yourself via tornados off of RD, I don't even want to know what your DPS/EHP ratio is. The only skill I can think of that is even remotely hard to control against RD mobs is Ball Lightning, and even then, if you see that you accidentally shot a bunch of them at orange spiky things, just press the SS or Gloom button.
  44. QUOTE

    Incidentally, I nerdraged a lot about walls recently. Apparently an xpac item lets you smash them.
    
    Obvious troll?

    What??? Oh lord that’s stupid. Unless “an xpac item” means “any weapon we can equip”. One can dream….

  45. QUOTE

    Okay, I don't get it. I mean seriously, today I  was chain frozen in a hallway by champion bats with desecrator, and  managed to eat 2 separate waves of freeze bombs and being in a  desecrator pool on MP5 for about 2 seconds while Serenity was on  cooldown. I didn't go below about a third of my health. Still not dying  on damage spikes, unless I happen to already be at low health and run  into a damage spike. I'm not really even arguing anymore, I'm just  confused - are you really getting 2-shotted by a basic savage beast  attack (not charge) on MP?
    
    Re: the other post - if you somehow instagib yourself via tornados off  of RD, I don't even want to know what your DPS/EHP ratio is. The only  skill I can think of that is even remotely hard to control against RD  mobs is Ball Lightning, and even then, if you see that you accidentally  shot a bunch of them at orange spiky things, just press the SS or Gloom  button.
    
    First of all, you're a Monk. Monks get decent resists and armor, and  are one of the five melee classes that is acknowledged as such, and  gets 30% dr.
    
    Second, Desecrate doesn't kill in "2 seconds", but if you're paralyzed in it, and getting hit, you'll die fast.
    
    Third,  when I said two shotted by beasts I meant the charge. Very few  characters have 500k EHP or more (unless Barb or Monk, again), 2 charges  on MP 1 will kill anything less.
    
    Fourth, I didn't say  "instagib". I said that when you stop attacking, the vast majority of  attacks continue doing damage for several seconds either because the DoT  didn't expire, projectile didn't hit, or the persistent area effect is  still there.
    
    And with any of these... yeah, you will die in  seconds... not instantly, but it's also a death sentence just the same.  Without lifesteal of course (incidentally, when I was experimenting with  Black Ice WITH lifesteal, sometimes I'd fire away and my life would not  move, other times my life would rapidly drop even if I stopped  attacking and wasn't getting hit... wtf). Other skills I experimented  with include Blizzard (6 seconds, longer with items), Wicked Wind (6  seconds), and Meteor (8 seconds). None of these gave me any problems  because I had lifesteal, and the lifesteal worked correctly, but if I  didn't have that it'd be a death sentence.
    
    As for the Mortars, I  just calculated it out, they do 100k each on MP 6 before mitigation.  Which is why they're the ultimate facetank or you're playing the game  wrong spec, because when I stopped experimenting with ranged builds I  stopped having problems with them (unless I got punted into a volley...  knockback range about = mortar range).
    
    Anyways, my point here was that if you go by "can handle the hardest stuff" everyone only belongs on low MPs, if you go by the metric of "can deal with most stuff" well you go on higher MPs and sometimes this happens (or even on MP 1, lol).
    
    
    What??? Oh lord that's stupid. Unless "an xpac item" means "any weapon we can equip". One can dream....
    
    It is a consumable item called "Kulle Aid". I am not even joking.
    
    And I've been adamantly against any sort of death penalty increase because it's not really in your control. It's not like DS where you die 3 times on random stuff and the rest is your fault, it's the opposite because Bed of Chaos style fights are the norm, and the D3 devs defend these sorts of fights. That and, if I wanted to punch well below my weight class for absolute safety reasons I still do have my HC characters.

  46. Steven: (not blockquoting because that’s annoying)

    So if Desecrate takes longer than 2 seconds, then what constitutes a damage spike? If something is over 3 seconds, is it still a damage spike? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? It’s not that spiky. Same goes for the beasts. In the FoM, beasts do not spawn in packs of more than one, but it’s one beast per large goatmen pack. Occasionally you may engage two beasts at once, but even so, that charge is telegraphed, and while it can come from offscreen, the chances of the charge actually hitting you is not very large, much less the chances of two beasts hitting you at once from offscreen at the same time. My point, in general, is just that the damage really isn’t that spiky, because there’s very little MSLE PEW PEW PEW PEW DEATH going on, if any at all. Pretty much any of my characters with their ****ty selffound gear can eat a full wave of mortars to the face on MP4 or so. Probably on MP5 and MP6, too. So how is that particularly spiky? Or does spike just mean “damage that is larger than other damage” with no time component? Because there’s plenty of time to use an escape skill/hit the potion button, collect a globe, etc. etc. unless you are being instagibbed by something. And if you’re not being instagibbed, even if you’re being chain CCed, are you really being chain CCed for longer than 3 seconds? Because if 2 seconds in Desecrator won’t kill you, how long do you have to be chain CCed for before you can use an invulnerability skill?

    As for the RD thing, okay, so, you didn’t say instagib. So if you’re not being instagibbed, RD isn’t a problem, because if your vestigial attacks don’t stop and you still eat some RD damage, now you can stop attacking and survive. And then restart attacking when you don’t see any orange spikes. What’s the problem?

    I guess, overall, I don’t really get why “oh no sometimes something is hard” is somehow some kind of death sentence to go hang out in low MPs. In softcore it’s okay to die sometimes, and it’s okay to actually sometimes not hold down the right mouse button. If you’re dying once every 10 minutes, okay, that’s crappy, but once every 5 hours? Eh, that’s cool. Otherwise, as my post above said, you may as well just tape down your right mouse button and play Realm of the Mad God.

  47. url]http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039514450?page

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039514450?page=11#213
    
    2 moar post
    
    The casual swatting aside of the dodging question
  48. QUOTE

    The casual swatting aside of the dodging question

    You mean this part?

    Some people have suggested that the solution to making the game more tactical is to make all mechanics 100% avoidable. This sounds good on paper but unfortunately doesn’t address one-shot deaths.

    Cuz damn I got excited for a second and thought he was about to fully agree with that sentiment. But the 2nd sentence made it more ambiguous as to where he stands on that. I have personally would have no problem at all with “one-shot deaths” as long as they are all fairly, reasonably avoidable.

  49. No, see, that’s what makes him a professional non-communicator. He said that making everything avoidable wouldn’t fix that specific issue (i.e. one shot deaths), without addressing the question of how much better the game’s combat would be with better allowance of avoiding enemy attacks.

  50. QUOTE

    Steven: (not blockquoting because that's annoying)
    
    So if Desecrate takes longer than 2 seconds, then what constitutes a damage spike?

    100% > 0%, no ability to act.

    In the first, I got paralyzed by a wall then cooked, I broke before the wall did, and while I could fight it didn’t save me.

    The second was like the first except knockback punted me out at low life and I lived.

    As for beast charges, double charges don’t come often, except vs elites. When a game is based on repetition, the probability of improbable events approaches one. That said, most of my bs deaths are from elites, sometimes trees. I mentioned this as an example of inconsistent difficulty.

    As for spike damage, it means more than anything else and also means damage taken while you can’t react. Also, what invulnerability skill?

    As for RD, if you have a few effects out, and RD comes on, and you have no ls… no,it isn’t instant, but it is a death sentence, you will end before your effects do.

    As for low MPs, if the game BoCing you has a penalty beyond annoying you… yeah, it is saying go low mps.

  51. Invulnerability skills = serenity, spirit walk, smoke screen

    Wizards do get the short end of the stick in that regard

    With that said, I actually died due to a vortex today for the first time in forever. I stupidly triggered Serenity offensively in order to keep up damage, and then got vortexed into a few overlapping molten trails after failing to proc dodge for a few hits in a row when I was at like 30% health. Definitely not making that mistake again.

  52. QUOTE

    Cuz damn I got excited for a second and thought he was about to fully agree with that sentiment. But the 2nd sentence made it more ambiguous as to where he stands on that. I have personally would have no problem at all with "one-shot deaths" as long as they are all fairly, reasonably avoidable.
    He is right though.
    Just because you technically can avoid all dmg, that doesn't make having a lot of one-shotting be okay.
    Then you would be dead the first second you don't avoid an attack.
    
    Having some relatively easy to avoid attacks one-shot, that is fair enough, like special main-boss attacks for example. But in general, attacks shouldn't really one shot if appropriately geared.
    
    If you went to the other end of the spectrum and made all attacks easily avoidable but also oneshotting? Meh. You just threw out the need for even a single defensive stat. And it doesn't sound like a Diablo game at all anymore.
    More like 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OMMCDBHstI
     (or similar, couldn't find a good video)
  53. Just because you technically can avoid all dmg, that doesn’t make having a lot of one-shotting okay.
    Then you would be dead the first time you don’t avoid an attack.

    Having some relatively easy to avoid attacks one-shot, that is fair enough, like special main-boss attacks for example. But in general, attacks shouldn’t really one shot if appropriately geared.

    Well, of course I wouldn’t want a ton of these but I see no problem with having some sporadic ones here or there. The suicide fallen come to mind as a particularly good example of something that could one-shot you but in a cool, fun, and fair way. I’d say the same about taking a face full of bees or letting yourself get morlu meteored. Especially at higher difficulties, I’d say these should be one-shot kills to nearly everyone.

  54. QUOTE=Ivan E;8563485]I guess, overall, I don’t really get why “oh no sometimes something is hard” is somehow some kind of death sentence to go hang out in low MPs. In softcore it’s okay to die sometimes, and it’s okay to actually sometimes not hold down the right mouse b
    i can’t say i blame him blame wyatt for taking a noncommittal posture given the less than enthusiastic response over his idea in the thread. it’s not a smart move to incite a mob with an SSS++ god tier salt level in the post-jay “we know what fun is” wilson era.

    I guess, overall, I don't really get why "oh no sometimes something is hard" is somehow some kind of death sentence to go hang out in low MPs. In softcore it's okay to die sometimes, and it's okay to actually sometimes not hold down the right mouse button.

    dying is okay? even worse, dying on low MP is okay? in a blizz game? lulz..thanks, that was just as funny as flux’s suggestion of a death penalty as a possible option in the article.

  55. QUOTE

    Well, of course I wouldn't want a ton of these but I see no problem with  having some sporadic ones here or there. The suicide fallen come to  mind as a particularly  good example of something that could one-shot  you but in a cool, fun, and fair way. I'd say the same about taking a  face full of bees (though I guess that's not technically one shot, hehe)  or letting yourself get morlu meteored. Especially at higher  difficulties, I'd say these 

    should be one-shot kills to nearly everyone.
    Ok, then we mostly agree πŸ™‚ Suicdie fallen etc are just fine imo – but they don’t oneshot with appropriate gear either.

    Still, I dont think any of these should one-shot, just take a large enough amount of dmg from you, that you really want to avoid them at all cost. Like losing 90% HP of a appropriately geared character in the worst cases – as long as you can’t get those 90% HP back in 0,1 second of course.
    There are too many things that can happen that means you dont avoid 1 of these attacks. Elites managing to CC you, or a combination of enemy placement and map structure boxing you in etc. Even if you try to avoid these things happening.
    And if it one-shots you, then it doesn’t matter that you can avoid it 999 of 1000 times. It still screws you over on of those times.
    It is more reasonable in my opinion that you have to “fail” a few times in a row rather than just one, before dying (but as I’ve said elsewhere, then the cost of dying should also be higher).

  56. Put me down on the side of no thanks to enemies that one-shot. Leave it for bosses if at all. I played Contra. Fun for its day, but I’m looking to play Diablo here.

    It is more reasonable in my opinion that you have to “fail” a few times in a row rather than just one, before dying (but as I’ve said elsewhere, then the cost of dying should also be higher)

    Agreed.

  57. On the other hand I dont think people are generally appropriately geared on SC now. So it’s perfectly fine they get one-shotted if they are far below reasonable defensive stats.
    I would like if the required defensive stats/ability requirement was a fair bit higher on SC – even though it will of course always be lower than on HC.

  58. QUOTE

    Invulnerability skills = serenity, spirit walk, smoke screen
    
    Wizards do get the short end of the stick in that regard
    
    With that said, I actually died due to a vortex today for the first time in forever. I stupidly triggered Serenity offensively in order to keep up damage, and then got vortexed into a few overlapping molten trails after failing to proc dodge for a few hits in a row when I was at like 30% health. Definitely not making that mistake again.
    
    Exactly the point I was getting at. If I see some BS on my Monk I press D and don't care.
    
    WD? I forget what button Spirit Walk is on, but the kill speed is high enough it's often active in combat.
    
    Still, if your counter is nope, I got invincibility star lulz and that's your only answer that is far from ideal.
    
    As it is, when I started preventing enemies from acting most of the time and chaining damage shields most of the rest I encountered a lot fewer problems. In other words, when I stopped treating it as some sort of slow tactical exercise that it isn't.
  59. A little late to comment on this, but making death more punishing isn’t a good thing. This ends up punishing not only the player who builds glass cannon and constantly walks the line between life and death, but also it punishes the player who is lower in ability or perhaps more casual and dies to mechanics more than gear checks. I think the right solution is just to make healing more regen, potion, and orb based rather than scaling up insanely on dps. Dropping monster damage and decreasing regen will make every hit matter, even if it doesn’t kill you, and if enough occur in a short enough time frame, you’ll die.

    The death penalty in softcore isn’t too light. The gold cost it very small, but there’s a time cost. In multiplayer it’s of lesser significance because your group is keeping the monsters attention and possibly finishing them off or reviving you shortly after. While I think the game is better played as multiplayer, I’m willing to accept it being a little easier because of this light penalty. Diablo 2 didn’t have much of a death penalty either: you mainly lost experience while everyone continued on without you (and because you literally lost experience). In a game where experience doesn’t matter, I think they’re doing the best they can. Now if they wanted to give you a paragon exp penalty, perhaps only penalizing you from the gains of your current session, I wouldn’t be opposed to that.

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