Wyatt Cheng on Life and Healing Issues


Not a developer interview, but DiabloWikiWyatt Cheng popped up on Reddit yesterday to answer some fan questions and drop some dev theory about healing, damage, EHP, monster attacks, and other related issues. As you guys heard on our podcast interview, Wyatt likes to get into the nitty gritty details of skills and stats; that can’t really be done in verbal communication, but it’s well-suited to text, and that’s what he gave us:

Wyatt: I agree that if we cut incoming damage and healing rates in half, players would run with half as much EHP, like you predict. So we can’t just go in there, make that change, and expect everything to be okay. I like the way you broke things into EHP and Sustain, it’s a good way to look at the problem.

I think that framework also hints at a potential solution too. We need to look at ways to test both your character’s Sustainability as well as your EHP. Melee classes already experience a good deal of this, which is why they were the first to adopt Life On Hit when the game first came out. As a melee class you are constantly taking melee damage from enemies, so your sustain is tested every second.

Right now we don’t have many ways to stress the EHP of the ranged classes without it feeling bursty. I think this is because the game has an plethora of “Do the right thing and take 0 damage, do the wrong thing and take 100K damage”. Since the outcomes are so binary, the correct way to build a ranged class is to try to do the right thing as often as you can, and maybe build enough survivability so you can make a mistake once in a while.

What I think we need more of is “Do the right thing and take 20K damage, do the wrong thing and take 80K damage”. You’re still trying to do the right thing, but you’re still taking damage either way. Besides, Sanctuary is a dangerous, violent and hazardous place – some amount of damage comes with the territory. When I play, I want to feel stress on my EHP and my Sustainability while still feeling satisfied for making smart plays. I also want to value incremental survivability choices I make on my gear and my skill build.

P.S. LpSS scales with attack speed too since you get more attacks per second which translates into more spirit generation.

If you’re lost on the acronym, DiabloWikiLpSS = Life per Spirit Spent, which is found on only a few items, is not much valued compared to DiabloWikiLife Steal or DiabloWikiLife on Hit. It only benefits, Monks obviously.

There were some more replies with good info, so click through to read the rest.

Good question regarding the 100K vs. 20K/80K scenario. I think I skipped a step in my answer which was assuming the player had about 100K EHP.

Let’s take it into some more concrete numbers. Let’s say a Demon Hunter has 30K health and regenerates 20K health per second via Gloom or what have you. In that world, a 30K hit kills you instantly.

Let’s take a mechanic like Mortar. Suppose at the MP level you’re playing at, Mortars hit for 30K. As a Demon Hunter you have 2 choices, you can either plan on avoiding all Mortars perfectly, and then you don’t die. Or you can gear for either 35K basically you’re allowing yourself some “slush”. How you gear depends on your confidence in your ability to avoid those Mortars, and how sensitive you are to death.

If you gear for 30K or less, then you are going to feel like the game is really cheap and unfair when you do die, because when those mortars hit you that you had planned on avoiding, you go from full to dead instantly. (Side note, this contributes to Vortex feeling cheap. It’s not that Vortex kills you directly, but Vortex causes you to take damage from something you had previously planned on avoiding completely, because you know it kills you)

On the other hand, if you gear for 35K health, then the game went from threatening to super-easy-mode, because the mortars are flying at you once every 2 seconds, and you heal to full in 1.5 seconds, now the mortars never actually kill you. In fact, you might not even bother dodging them anymore.

Now enter the “half-damage and half-healing”. Instead of healing for 20K health per second, I heal for 10K health per second. But instead of taking 30K damage, I take 15K damage. In the absence of any other changes, I think we’d see exactly what you predict. The game didn’t become interesting, instead, I’m just going to gear with 15K health.

However, what if the way in which we cut Mortar damage wasn’t just a strict 50% cut. What if we took the 30K damage and made it “0 damage if you avoid the Mortar by 20 yards, 5K damage if there is a Nearby Hit of about 8 yards, and 25K damage if you are hit directly”.

Now as a player I can’t reliably plan on avoiding all the Mortar hits. If I want to play super-duper safe I can avoid all the mortars, but I’m probably running a ton and doing almost no damage. Realistically I’m probably going to take 5K “incidental damage” constantly. This is going to eat into my 10K healing per second. If I take a 25K hit that leaves me at 5K health, I’m scared but not dead. Over the next 5 seconds I can’t afford to take another direct hit, and can either play super conservatively to avoid even 5K hits, or I can play more aggressively and accept that my 10K regen per second is being partially counteracted by the 5K near-hits and just make a concerted effort to avoid any more direct hits until my health is back up to a comfortable range.

You’re right this would be a significant shift in the environment, which is why you haven’t seen such a change.

Note: I’m not actually saying we’re going to change anything with Mortar. I’m just using it for illustrative purposes because I think it’s a good example for people to wrap their minds around right now.

I think buffing the numbers on things like LpSS and Life Regen is reasonable. I lean more towards LpSS.

Passive Life regen is good for allowing you to withstand some amount of damage over time, but when things go wrong and I’m close to death then my response is to back off and run in circles or run away until my regen has time to kick in. If I become overly reliant on this, then I may find myself running away a lot. This is not universally a bad thing, but it’s bad if it happens too much or it becomes the dominant way in which I play my Monk or Barbarian. (Ranged classes don’t suffer from this as much because they have tools to continue doing damage while minimizing how much damage they take)

If we were to buff LpSS instead, then when I’m low on life I still want to play carefully and conservatively but I still want to engage monsters, generate spirit, and then spend it to heal myself. I think LpSS has the potential to be a great stat, but the current tuning numbers are too low to be competitive in today’s environment. I think Life for Fury Spent could be tuned to be attractive as well. If I were low on Life (and healing were harder to come by then it is now), it would encourage me to do things that generated Fury and then spend that fury to heal myself.

One of the cases I think health globes break down the most right now is when I am fighting a large monster. Let’s say I’m normally killing a monster every second, and getting a health globe every 5 seconds (every 5 monsters). The health globes are very comfortably healing me so I’m fine.

Then I come up to a boss, champion, rare, etc. and suddenly I’m health globe starved for 30 seconds. This is enough to kill me. Now I need other sources of healing from my gear or skills.

I don’t think this is necessarily a problem, but it happens to a more extreme state right now then I think it needs to. Monsters currently have the ability to drop health globes incrementally as they take damage (ie. drop a globe at 50% health), but we could probably use that more, to try and remove those long periods against very high health targets where you are health globe starved.

Well if you can’t depend on health globes for healing when you need them most, wouldn’t it make sense, as a player, to instead build around one of the life regen affixes like LS or LoH instead? If LoH or lifesteal are strong enough to cover a 30-second gap in health globes, they’ll be way more than enough to sustain yourself through the trash.

It just seems that the inevitable outcome is that health globes become the secondary source of healing instead of the primary source.
Wyatt: Yes. I think your analysis is correct. I think your assessment is why healing from health globes feel marginalized in the current live game at high levels of play.

One possible solution would be if you weren’t starved for 30 seconds on the elite. Like if the elite dropped a health globe every 20% health, then you’d get a health globe every 6 seconds while fighting this high health elite.

The devs have spoken a lot lately about healing issues and the way the health globe system breaks down at the high end. The exact same thing happened in Diablo 2 of course, where the “potion spam” the D3 devs always speak of was a non-issue at the high end, where regen and life/mana leech was all-important, so at least D3’s LoH and LS issue is following the proper tradition of health systems in Diablo games.

My complaints about the health system are focused more on the imbalances. For instance, Barbs can get up to 6% more life leech than any other class, thanks to 3% from Mighty Belts and another 3% from the Bloodthirst passive. In D3’s design, high DPS cures all ills, the Barb can get the most DPS the most easily, and when you combine that with easy access to double or triple the life leech of other characters, the OP results are predictable.

The hidden imbalances of LS vs. LoH are also vexing. My dead HC Monk used Life on Hit, since it’s cheaper and LS is really hard to get (for non-Barbs). I’m sacrificing a LOT of DPS to keep a life leech weapon on my Monk. Why is that so much better than LoH? Because LS procs with Sweeping Wind while LoH does not, which makes a huge difference in survivability for Hardcore Monks. There are several other skills with LS vs. LoH incompatibilities, none of which are documented in-game.

That said… how do you guys feel about the overall health system? I’m not unhappy with it personally, probably since I always assumed health globes would become largely irrelevant in the end game, just as potions were in D2. (Where Life/Mana Leech was all-important.) From all their recent comments it’s pretty clear that’s contrary to what the D3 Devs wanted though, which is why they’re trying to tinker with it to reduce the impact of LS/LoH, to boost other healing options, and to make health globes more important. Do you like those ideas, and what do you think of Wyatt’s other comments here?

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  1. Fairly disappointed overall. Too high damage in, and too high healing, resulting in a game of burst damages. Give me a game where both damage taken and healing gained is low enough that health globes are relevant for example.

    • I am logged in as Sir_matas??? WTF?

      • Login issues have been like that for 3 weeks or something. My guess is that their server code is messed up, and they don’t know how to quickly fix it, or it would have been fixed already. Usually, your post will show up with your correct user name, anyway.

      • It’s a display issue, you aren’t really logged in as him. This happened before and it was fixed and that will happen again.

    • Did you read what the reddit poster/wyatt said? if they did what you ask ( less healing/less damage taken ) people will just gear with more dps and less health and were back to the same point.

  2. This is a mountain out of a molehill at this rate, IMO.

    I think the D3 devs did a great job (eventually) of creating a system with non-spiky damage, which was one of their stated goals pre-release. If you try to get even a bit of vit/all res and a bit of some kind of life regen (even the globes/potions affix), it plays very well. If you’re finding damage too spiky, drop the MP; if you are invulnerable because your regen is too good, push the MP higher.

    For me, every elite battle is probably what the devs expected, and what Wyatt is aiming for here: I have to play relatively carefully/get out of the fire/not facetank certain mobs with certain affixes, but I don’t have to be perfect/can facetank certain mobs even with squishy ranged classes. With my Monk, it’s often a race to whether I can kill stuff before it kills me / I can pop one of my cooldown spells again, and I rely on LS/LoH while dealing damage. With my Barb, it’s somewhat similar, though my Barb is a lot more survivable due to his gear.

    • Yeah, but you – like me – are self-found and therefore you are irrelevant to all things. ๐Ÿ˜›

      My complaint is not so much “spiky” damage as much as it is cheap, unavoidable bursts of spiky damage like those that come from getting Vortexed into a big pack. If those were somehow avoidable/interruptable the health thing would feel pretty good to me too.

      • I just keep my finger over my escape skill — spirit walk/smoke screen (or gloom) / serenity / teleport whenever fighting such a pack.

        I have enough life/resist that I might die within 2 seconds of being vortexed, but because I have ample time to trigger a panic button after being vortexed, I don’t find it that bad. I know I did at points in the past, but that’s the kind of character progression that I’ve experienced — I no longer get squished by things that used to one-hit KO me.

        • Yeah, that’s what you have to do, but that’s why I hate it – it’s what you HAVE to do. There shouldn’t be any specific skills that you’re *required* to have to avoid death.

          • A question I wanted to ask in my interview but didn’t manage to squeeze into the time was about this issue. Basically that the game at the high end has turned into a math equation, where EHP + DPS / monster hps = result. There’s not much “skill” at that point, it’s just about the quality of your gear, the length of your CCs, etc. And that’s mostly due to D3’s system of guaranteed monster hits and everything (res, defense, etc) being based on damage mitigation.

            Some players want more hit or miss, based on reflexes and movement and timing of CCs and such. And that sounds like exactly not what Wyatt’s envisioning, with these comments.

          • Yes, I found that quite disappointing. If you “do everything right” you’d still take 20% damage? What an awful, awful idea!

          • Its because of the online nature of the game. They’ve made massive hitboxes to hide rubberbanding and lag. You see the opposite in POE, you have excellent ability to dodge attacks ect, however, occasionally some fast mobs will cause rubber banding and snap you to a place you weren’t previously. Can be annoying sometimes, but I love the ability to dodge attacks and not be 10 feet away from a mob and still get hit.

  3. It’s sad that the game on inferno is all about spiky damage – the thing that they wanted to avoid. I think that they should try to give an option to make huge EHP characters with changes like:

    1. Min Block Chance on shields – 35%; the best legendary shields could have up to 60%.
    2. Add better “Reduces damage from…” affixes in more items.
    3. Than nerf Barb’s LS and give options to other classes to have LS OR allow this affix to occur in every belt and nerf whole LS a bit.
    And give us it on PTR to test and balance it with players’ help.

    I think that there can be those huge numbers of DPS so not equipped chars couldn’t farm high MPs but there should be also possibility to reduce more % of those damages. Health Globe system is awesome and works fine before Inferno but since you enter MP10 on Inferno your HP becomes so weak that you are made to instantly recover huge amounts of it. I think that they should try to make HP more stable and focus on reducing taken damage with items and skills. Than Life Regen would work better such as LpSS.

  4. This entire subject makes me facepalm hard. Allow me to walk you through it and see if you join me.

    Problem: People are either instantly dying or recovering through anything because recovery matters more than dodging and facetank is the name of the game.
    Solution: Make dodging matter less, by taking damage even if the attack misses, such that you will need recovery even if you are good at dodging and further, the few attacks you are currently able to dodge by physically moving out of the way you cannot really do so anymore.

    Intended goal: Make recovery less mandatory.
    What actually happens: Facetank recovery spam is more prevalent than ever.

    Come on guys, we finally got away from this pure gearcheck BS a little (just a little), don’t go full WoWtard now!

  5. I am happy with the health system so far. I think value the health system is much more balanced in Hardcore versus Softcore.

    Almost every HC player knows how important life is so they know how to properly gear and take advantage of LS, LOH, REGEN, etc. The problem with SC is that honestly people play recklessly. I did too before I made the switch.

    The issue with health globes for sustain is that you need +globes on items for viability. I would guess at least 10k to +globes, to make globes heal about 25k health. The higher lvl you play the more health you have and the more +globes you need to sustain. Gearing for +globes, makes you lose a slot that you can conversely use for +Armor, All Res, etc.

    Then you need pickup radius on top of +globes which ideally wastes another item attribute. Ultimately if you can find items that give +globe and pick up radius, its typically not cheap also.

    • Globes are great throughout game and into low mp inferno. You have to stack high armor and resists to make those hp count. Plus globes gear is also essential. This works with the hc gearing mindset, but not for softies. It’s more effective to go all out dps and leech, which works great until you lag.

      Globes become a osolete at high mp or for ubers. If globes healed more at higher mp, maybe that would help. Or make globes heal same amount initially, then give 1k life per second after for a duration that goes up with monster power. So mp 1 you get 1 tick, 2 @2, 3@3, etc, up to 10 seconds at mp10. Globe bonus could increase the amount per tick.

    • My old SC monk had a great self found trifecta amulet that had +11k to health globes on it. And I can definitely say it made a huge diff for that char, and regularly saved my life as I got almost a full heal from every globe.

      That said, I don’t even really notice or care about that stat in Hardcore since my Monk there has double the hps, a shield, 300 higher to res, etc, than my SC monk did.

      Wyatt’s comments about more health globes from a given boss should, I think, be considered in some hypothetical version of D3 where characters don’t have such high life recovery, and thus aren’t in the paradigm of my current HC monk, with 1m EHP who doesn’t much need health globes.

  6. I don’t see health or regen being an issue so much as the loot system when it comes to health, the problem is how do you balance any kind of health/damage system when the items causing the damage have such a massive range in damage they can apply? I mean if you balance a health system for the mid range player with 100k DPS the guy with 300k DPS is a god, if you balance it for 300k DPS the guy with 100k DPS can’t even play. All goes back to the fundamental flaws in design philosophy which I imagine stem from bean counters who know nothing about gaming interfering with the design goals.

  7. “Right now we donโ€™t have many ways to stress the EHP of the ranged classes without it feeling bursty. I think this is because the game has an plethora of โ€œDo the right thing and take 0 damage, do the wrong thing and take 100K damageโ€. Since the outcomes are so binary, the correct way to build a ranged class is to try to do the right thing as often as you can, and maybe build enough survivability so you can make a mistake once in a while.

    What I think we need more of is […]”

    Well, and I think this required some intervention like over a year ago, instead of your highly hypothetical design philosophies that usually tend to not lead anywhere in a timely manner, Mr. Cheng.

    Again, the very core gameplay you correctly state as being way off since release isn’t a matter of nudging in a bit here and there. It’s also not a matter of adjusting some values from 0/100 to 20/80. That would certainly be easy and cheap but it doesn’t fix the root of the problem โ€“ and you stated multiple times in the past that you weren’t content with just mending symptons, remember?

    To get to the roots, you have to tip over a tree. In the very specific example presented here, where melee classes take damage as designed and ranged classes take no damage and thus things have to be mitigated by amount rather than frequency of damage: The solution isn’t number-crunching or a stadard damage aura (as I’m sure you have considered as an easy, half-assed band-aid solution). Monsters, and I mean pretty much all of them, needed a more sophisticated AI that allows them to act and react properly accodringly to both melee and ranged combat. Also, every single creature type needs an assortment of skills/spells to be armed for more complex situations. Your former reason, that monsters die within 3 seconds of screen time anyway, can’t possibly be meant as a serious excuse for lacking enemy design depth. The screen-time thing is yet another, deeper core gameplay issue you should have taken care of before release โ€“ it’s not a valid shortcut to quality game development.

    And to be perfectly clear, things like these are part of the ‘fixing the main game’ agenda; “expansion might fix it” isn’t in the cards anymore considering how this game release was handled over the last couple of years.

  8. QUOTE

    Did you read what the reddit poster/wyatt said? if they did what you ask ( less healing/less damage taken ) people will just gear with more dps and less health and were back to the same point.

    Why would they? If the healing is reduced enough, you will have the same – or preferably higher – risk of dying than you have now, it will just be slower deaths instead of fast deaths.

  9. I dunno, I like the idea of always hit game mechanics but in truth it’s not really always hit, we do have a dodge mechanic… My problem with the idea of some underlying “miss” system is that it makes no real sense, I’m standing in front of a 50foot demon, who’s been battling and killing things for hundreds if not thousands of years… BUT because I have 50% dodge he can’t hit me when I’m standing still… It’s pretty lame and the only reason we had static “miss” systems in the first place is due to the technical limitations they had to deal with in the past, all MMO’s aren’t using the same miss system because it’s awesome, they use it because it’s a lot cheaper to write a simple math script to tell how much damage someone took than to write everything you would need to make a roll system for the character to dodge the damage themselves.
    From the start this game should have had dodge/block mechanics tied to active skills, which in a sense they did with the DH, if you take full damage on a DH it’s not because there is some lame game system that always hits and mitigates… it’s because you didn’t move quick enough… Even on my spin and win Barb I avoid tons of damage by just not being there when it lands… Even the hammerlords in act 4 are a piece of cake, attack until the hands go up, then book it… rinse and repeat, done… how people have been playing this game for months and STILL sit there WW’ing until the hammers drop then piss and moan about spike damage is beyond me.

  10. I like the ‘always hit’ mechanics.
    It makes things less random, and less latency dependent.

    Less random is good. For the same reasons less burst dmg is good really.

    Still plenty of areas in the game where you can avoid dmg by moving around, so its not like you can’t play smart – which is also very good.

  11. QUOTE

    Yes, I found that quite disappointing. If you "do everything right" you'd still take 20% damage? What an awful, awful idea!

    For once we are in agreement.

  12. QUOTE

    Why would they? If the healing is reduced enough, you will have the same - or preferably higher - risk of dying than you have now, it will just be slower deaths instead of fast deaths.
    
    No, it just means even more facetank speccing as damage becomes even more inevitable (this also makes mortars go over your head).
    
    Has anyone mentioned 25 yards = half screen yet?
    
    Nerfing regen just shuts down HC, as regen doesn't mitigate damage so much as the shaky servers.
  13. QUOTE

    I like the 'always hit' mechanics.
    It makes things less random, and less latency dependent.
    
    Less random is good. For the same reasons less burst dmg is good really.
    
    Still plenty of areas in the game where you can avoid dmg by moving around, so its not like you can't play smart - which is also very good of course.
    
    More skill dependant gameplay - less gameplay that is based on luck or <10ms latency movement. One of the areas where the game was pretty great from day one to be honest. Even if it drowned in all the other issues.

    Do tell, how is auto hit so I'll just facetank skill?

    Skills that can be dodged by moving:

    Elemental elite affixes.
    Mortar.
    Very slow, telegraphed attacks.

    They want this list shorter.

    They and you, I must ask why.

  14. TBH if you think Mortar’s and slow telegraphs are the only thing you can avoid, you’re missing a whole lot… Hammer attacks, fireballs, heck pretty much any “power” shot from an NPC can be avoided because there is always some kind of “casting delay” animation to warn you of the big whacks… TBH, as far as NPC queues go this game isn’t all that different from Neverwinter, being 10ft away from an NPC and it still hitting you despite dodging it’s attack is usually lag and there isn’t much they can do about that… I mean yeah, white damage is swing/hit/mitigate but if you are struggling so hard with white damage you need to get out of whatever MP you are in and do something more your level.

    • True, there is more dodgeable stuff than Hazani says, including pretty much all ranged attacks…but IMO that’s totally offset by all the stuff that can’t be dodged such as the various monsters that phase or teleport on top of you. Suuuuch a lame mechanic.

  15. QUOTE

    Skills that can be dodged by moving:
    
    Elemental elite affixes.
    Mortar.
    Very slow, telegraphed attacks.
    
    They want this list shorter.
    
    They and you, I must ask why.

    Huh. I dont want that list shorter. I like the telegraphed attacks.
    They aren’t the attacks which auto-hit.

  16. QUOTE

    True, there is more dodgeable stuff than Hazani says, including pretty much all ranged attacks...but IMO that's totally offset by all the stuff that can't be dodged such as the various monsters that phase or teleport on top of you. Suuuuch a lame mechanic.

    Yeah but let’s be honest with ourselves here, if you can’t handle phase beast champ packs it’s not because phase beast champ packs are overpowered… it’s because there needs to be SOMETHING in this game that will kill you… and I say you not knowing what class you play, I play a barb, nothing kills me so complaints on players dying are all lame and everyone sucks. ๐Ÿ˜›

    • Oh, that’s a great idea. How bout randomly every hour or two, a meteor falls from the sky that does 100% damage. It’d be awesome!!!11!1

  17. Isnt that basically how it is now, with burst damage ๐Ÿ˜€ Once in a while you take enough damage that it gets through your insane hp regen stats.
    But yeah, that would obviously be stupid.

  18. QUOTE

    TBH if you think Mortar's and 
    slow telegraphs
     are the only thing you can avoid, you're missing a whole lot... 
    Hammer attacks
    , fireballs, heck 
    pretty much any "power" shot from an NPC
     can be avoided because there is always some kind of 
    "casting delay"
      animation to warn you of the big whacks, you just need to move DURING  the animation, not after... As far as NPC visual queues go this game  isn't all that different from Neverwinter, it's just a whole lot smaller  and harder to see when your screen is being filled with pixel vomit,  being 10ft away from an NPC and it still hitting you despite dodging its  attack is usually lag and there isn't much they can do about that, I  mean yeah, white damage is swing/hit/mitigate but if you are struggling  so hard with white damage you need to get out of whatever MP you are in  and do something more your level.
    
    *facepalm*
    
    Normal ranged attacks will hit if within 10 yards of your character, circle strafe slow skeleton archers and see.
    
    
    Huh. I dont want that list shorter. I like the telegraphed attacks.
    They aren't the attacks which auto-hit. As concupisco say thats the 'white damage', the normal attacks, or whatever you want to call them.

    The article is about making dodgeable attacks hit anyways.

    Making 'white damage' attacks be dodgeable would be worse than auto-hit simply because it would be like rolling the random latency dice every hit. Did you stand in the right pixel spot or not those 100 ms ago.
    That is not skill. Just randomness.

    ORRRR... it could be that ranged combat functions.

    Why does damage become more inevitable?
    The only difference is how fast you take damage.

    
    Do I honestly need to explain precisely how and why turning dodgeable attacks into 
    half screen wide effects
     means more inevitable damage?
  19. QUOTE

    *facepalm*
    
    Normal ranged attacks will hit if within 10 yards of your character, circle strafe slow skeleton archers and see.
    
    

    Normal ranged attacks… AKA white damage, so… what you’re basically telling me, or at least the way I’m interpreting this is you are having a problem with white damage being a constant “DOT” effect while you are in combat? I have to ask because from my own personal experience I don’t die from skeletal archers unless something hammered the hell out of me and they just happened to get the last hit.

  20. QUOTE

    The article is about making dodgeable attacks hit anyways.

    Then we are certainly talking past each other.
    The Wyatt quotes are about two things.
    – Incoming dmg/incoming healing issue (how to challenge players ‘EHP’)
    – Hit/dodge (Wyatts weird idea of taking dmg from things that actually dont hit you or whatever he is meaning – I have no idea, nor do I really care, since it’s not the problem with the game)

    I was (fairly clearly as I see it) talking about incoming dmg/healing in the post you quoted from back then.
    There simply is no hit/dodge issue in my opinion. Hit and dodge works perfectly fine in D3, hell, I’d say its one of the things that work best in this game.

    Incoming dmg/healing on the other hand works as bad as it did in Diablo 2, and most other A-RPGs sadly.

  21. I’d just like to offer one point, when people refer to “burst” damage, or any damage it could be an uber player with epic gear who just got slammed by epic phase beasts on MP10… OR it can be a level 34 character with junk gear dying from damage that isn’t “really” burst unless you are just that horribly under-geared… Perspective from both players will be radically different and I can’t help but see this being the reflect damage issue all over again.

  22. QUOTE

    I'd just like to offer one point, when people refer to "burst" damage, or any damage/health issues, it could be an uber player with epic gear who just got slammed by epic phase beasts on MP10... OR it can be a level 34 character with junk gear dying from damage that isn't "really" burst unless you are just that horribly under-geared... Perspective from both players will be radically different and I can't help but see this being the reflect issue all over again.

    True. In the end it is hard for anyone but Blizzard to determine what they correct gear requirement is, that they want to balance for.
    But it hardly changes the issue.
    The dmg is bursty, otherwise you could have people running around without lifesteal and LoH for example.
    The dmg will feel somewhat bursty for someone who is greatly undergeared no matter what. That is the players fault for going further than they ought to.
    The damage – unfortunately – MUST feel bursty for someone who is greatly geared in MP10, otherwise he would be immortal. And that is the problem. It’s a balance direction where the only answer from both sides (monsters and characters gearing) is ever more burst dmg and more burst healing in a hopeless fight to balance each other.

  23. QUOTE

    Normal ranged attacks... AKA white damage, so... what you're basically telling me, or at least the way I'm interpreting this is you are having a problem with white damage being a constant "DOT" effect while you are in combat? I have to ask because from my own personal experience I don't die from skeletal archers unless something hammered the hell out of me and they just happened to get the last hit.

    I did not say I died from them. I said they’d hit you even if you attempted to dodge them, even though on your screen the arrow is where you were a full second ago (with a latency around 100, not 1,000) you will still get hit again and again and again. So you might as well just stand there and facetank as attempting to dodge just means you don’t do deeps and they still do. The main thing I was pointing out though was that your counter to “Slow telegraphed attacks and elite abilities are the only things that are dodgeable” is “Nope, here’s a few slow telegraphed attacks you can dodge!”

  24. health globes is useless in survive, it never there when player need it. No matter how they change it is a flaw design in the very beginning. LOH is flaw as the number is too low compared to LS….. problem of life on resource spend is ” generation of resource” but not how much compared to regen. If LS can serve good why we need it? waste one afflix for that junk?

  25. QUOTE

    health globes is useless in survive, it never there when player need it. No matter how they change it is a flaw design in the very beginning. LOH is flaw as the number is too low compared to LS..... problem of life on resource spend is " generation of resource" but not how much compared to regen. If LS can serve good why we need it? waste one afflix for that junk?

    Health globes are fine imo. ‘Not there when you need them’ comes from health moving up and down too fast.
    If you can die in 1 second, then yeah, health orbs arent there when you need them.
    If it takes 20 seconds for you to die, then there is enough time to move to the nearest health orb, or even make a new one drop.

  26. For me, however, polls show up as already voted, even if I haven’t.

  27. QUOTE

    I did not say I died from them. I said they'd hit you even if you attempted to dodge them, even though on your screen the arrow is where you were a full second ago (with a latency around 100, not 1,000) you will still get hit again and again and again. Remember kids, dodging isn't fun. Jay Wilson said so! So you might as well just stand there and facetank as attempting to dodge just means you don't do deeps and they still do. The main thing I was pointing out though was that your counter to "Slow telegraphed attacks and elite abilities are the only things that are dodgeable" is "Nope, here's a few slow telegraphed attacks you can dodge!"
    

    Ahh I see where wires are getting crossed, you object to the always hit mechanic just because it’s an always hit mechanic, not because it is causing any real problem in the game, it’s just lame to have, is that right?

  28. QUOTE

    Ahh I see where wires are getting crossed, you object to the always hit mechanic just because it's an always hit mechanic, not because it is causing any real problem in the game, it's just lame to have, is that right?

    Well yeah. It’s not an MMO, it shouldn’t have MMO mechanics or dynamics at all, especially since the things that make an MMORPG good make (any other type of)RPG bad and vice versa.

    That said there are ranged enemies that hit hard (the javelin throwers) and they have very imprecise hit boxes as well, not as bad as the archers though.

  29. Isnt auto-hit a rather classic RPG mechanism though?
    Contrary, all hits being area-dependent sounds much more like an action game.

    • Um, I hate to break it to you but this is an action game. It’s one with lots of RPG-style elements but it’s still an action game. Thus the term “Hack and slash”, which has always been associated with Diablo.

  30. QUOTE

    It's flaw is not because of players under gear but difficult to include health glove in my fighting plan.
    
    When my hp slowly drop and i know i cant kill it, I will drink potion or escape than stay there and wait for unpredictable red ball. Generation of it is random. 
    
    you know you will died, drink potion can save you ( if it is not in cool down)  but you don't know if there are any health glove generate before you died. 
       
    Your assumption is truth but not realistic.

    It’s not supposed to be a part of your fighting plan, it’s just a little bit of random extra healing, it may or may not help by design, your “heals” are leech, life on hit, regen, potions and skills, if players feel they “need” the health globes to drop more to progress it is because they are under-geared for the content they are doing, the game has more than enough healing available without depending on globes for anything more than top-ups during combat.

    • I suggest you read the reason of introduce health glove from the very beginning. Why introduce something irrelevant to game play?

    • This is completely and utterly incorrect. It was always stated by the design team that the health globes were intended to be the primary healing mechanism and that leeching would be kept to a minimum. They failed to manage that for the endgame but I think it is still absolutely a worthy goal to strive for.

  31. QUOTE

    This is completely and utterly incorrect. It was always stated by the design team that the health globes were intended to be the primary healing mechanism and that leeching would be kept to a minimum. They failed to manage that for the endgame but I think it is still absolutely a worthy goal to strive for.

    This! On the other hand, yeah, its an action game, but there has always been substantial RPG mechanics in Diablo as well. Stats, abilities etc matters a great deal.

  32. QUOTE

    Auto-hit as a mechanism helps to keep defensive stats relevant. If you can avoid all hits, then it sounds much more like a twitchy action game and less like an rpg, in my head. I want it to be both.

    I’ve heard this argument before but it makes no sense to me since D1 and D2 didn’t have this mechanic and didn’t have this problem.

  33. Not saying auto-hit is the only way to achieve this. It just helps.
    It seems very hard to compare to D2 because of the skill point system, where you could get very cheap access to defensive skills, compared to D3. Defensive skills need to be more important in D3 than in D2 for example, for people to pick defensive skills – since the opportunity cost of spending a skill slot is so much higher.
    Defensive stats on gear is more comparable, and they are already quite undervalued in SC-mode in D3.
    Of course death penalty was also higher in D2 – even if not by much – giving more wight to defense through that. Would love to see a stronger death penalty in D3 SC.

    In any case, I also think D3 combat is (current balance and lack of difficulty-issues aside) way better than what D1 and D2 had.

  34. QUOTE

    This!  
    
    On the other hand, yeah, its an action-rpg game, but there has always been substantial RPG mechanics in Diablo as well. Stats, abilities etc matters a great deal.
    Sure, its not a classic RPG, but it got the numbers/dice-roll aspect of classic RPGs.
    
    Auto-hit as a mechanism helps to keep defensive stats relevant. If you can avoid all hits, then it sounds much more like a twitchy action game and less like an rpg, in my head. I want it to be both.

    Just because you can dodge anything doesn’t mean you can dodge everything. If there’s 1-3 enemies yes, you likely won’t get hit much if at all. How often does this happen?

    Remember, most ranged do 0 dps while moving. If they aren’t getting something for that, like not being hit they won’t bother.

  35. Getting hit less still sounds better than getting hit more. So they will still benefit for kiting, even if they are hit sometimes.
    If you can kite safely, with no defense, then its not good for the game though, as I see it.

    Its not like all the ranged classes don’t have skills that deal dmg while they move either.

  36. I’ve been through the kite era. I did less dps and took the same dps. Granted, this is when many more attacks tracked you, mortars were unavoidable for example. But that’s exactly what they’re talking about returning. We broke Jay Wilson of the notion MMO mechanics in a non MMO = fun, but then we get some new guys who still think we want an MMO.

    Back then no one had the dps to make the other builds work at all though.

    When DHers were good it was because people were chaining invincibility. “You cannot take damage” sounds like a tank mechanic to me. Once that was nerfed they never got a chance to establish themselves as a legit class as any good build or strategy they ever found was nerfed out. Remember when facetanking was a new and novel thing and DHers were actually good at it? That build was nerfed into nonexistence, rather than promoting new builds and playstyles. Why? Because they were worried it’d be overpowered with the new legendary procs… that turned out to do 20k damage with long cooldowns anyways.

  37. QUOTE

    I've been through the kite era. I did less dps and took the same dps. Granted, this is when many more attacks tracked you, mortars were unavoidable for example. But that's exactly what they're talking about returning. We broke Jay Wilson of the notion MMO mechanics in a non MMO = fun, but then we get some new guys who still think we want an MMO.
    
    Back then no one had the dps to make the other builds work at all though.
    
    When DHers were good it was because people were chaining invincibility. "You cannot take damage" sounds like a tank mechanic to me. Once that was nerfed they never got a chance to establish themselves as a legit class as any good build or strategy they ever found was nerfed out. Remember when facetanking was a new and novel thing and DHers were actually good at it? That build was nerfed into nonexistence, rather than promoting new builds and playstyles. Why? Because they were worried it'd be overpowered with the new legendary procs... that turned out to do 20k damage with long cooldowns anyways.
    
    Honestly I feel like they had no idea what they were doing when they designed the Demon Hunter. Most of the nerfs that they've hit the DH with had justifications like "X skill wasn't meant to be used in Y way," "Discipline spenders weren't intended to do damage or be a primary source of sustain (lol Gloom)", or "The builds that this skill enables don't match up with the core fantasy of being a Demon Hunter." It's like they have this really specific vision of what Demon Hunters should do but have no idea how to actually realize it.
    
    The last reason is especially strange when you look at the Wizard's viable builds. Per their own description of the class, Wizards are supposed to be a fragile ranged burst damage class, yet the reality is that she's basically a melee to mid-range dps who can mitigate a massive amount of damage through a combination of okay mitigation and fantastic CC, yet outside of nerfing permafrost over and over they haven't really done or said a lot about this other than "Wizards have weird skill synergy right now."
  38. As I’ve said before, IMO the DH is currently doing pretty darn great and it’s precisely because she’s playing just like she was designed to – a bursty ranged glass cannon. One could argue that maybe they need a little more burst or little less glass but to say that the DH is poorly designed because she’s a ranged glass cannon is nonsense.

    (And before Hazani chimes in, I’ve already commented on how they can make ranged work well again – remove the insta-hits and improve the CCs across the board. Do that and it fixes the DH’s biggest problem and you don’t need a broad class redesign to do it.)

  39. QUOTE

    Honestly I feel like they had no idea what they were doing when they designed the Demon Hunter. Most of the nerfs that they've hit the DH with had justifications like "X skill wasn't meant to be used in Y way," "Discipline spenders weren't intended to do damage or be a primary source of sustain (lol Gloom)", or "The builds that this skill enables don't match up with the core fantasy of being a Demon Hunter." It's like they have this really specific vision of what Demon Hunters should do but have no idea how to actually realize it.
    
    The last reason is especially strange when you look at the Wizard's viable builds. Per their own description of the class, Wizards are supposed to be a fragile ranged burst damage class, yet the reality is that she's basically a melee to mid-range dps who can mitigate a massive amount of damage through a combination of okay mitigation and fantastic CC, yet outside of nerfing permafrost over and over they haven't really done or said a lot about this other than "Wizards have weird skill synergy right now."

    It’s very obvious. Late in development they decided they needed a ranged class, both DHers and ranged were tacked on. DHers got revamped once shortly before release, again a bit after release.

    If you don’t design something as part of the game of course it doesn’t seem to fit, of course it seems out of place. It is.

    That’s why every class has at least one build that works together and DHers just have a bunch of things that are… there.

    There’s only one class that works as intended (it’s not DH). That much is fine. But there’s also one class that doesn’t work at all (it is DH) and that isn’t fine.

    See, emergent gameplay is when players decide that the way you want them to play isn’t fun and some other way is. So Wizards going melee instead of ranged kite? Emergent gameplay, stemming from ranged nonviability due to not being originally intended. Same with the whole health globes thing, and many other aspects of the game.

  40. Are you saying they intentionally made the close-range Wiz the best way to play?????

    Again, I have to insist that the reason that the DH supposedly “doesn’t work at all” (even though it does) is almost entirely because of the number of game’s unavoidable hits, not because the DH is poorly designed. Give players the real ability avoid avoid hits and it fixes pretty much the entire problem. Everything else is just tweaking a few numbers.

  41. QUOTE

    Are you saying they 

    intentionally made the close-range Wiz the best way to play????? Wow…..

    Again, I have to insist that the reason that the DH supposedly “doesn’t work at all” (even though it does) is almost entirely because of the number of game’s unavoidable hits, not because the DH is poorly designed. Give players the real ability avoid avoid hits and it fixes pretty much the entire problem. Everything else is just tweaking a few numbers.

    I’m saying they made tornados overpowered. The melee wiz just so happens to have tornados. It does however explain why ranged wizards don’t work. If it wasn’t for that, wizards wouldn’t have any builds and would actually be worse than DHers.

    Even if ranged combat worked the DH skills are all just click and fire, done. No synergy or nothing, and that’s why 200k dps can barely do MP5 when any other class can do MP 10 with that.

  42. Yes, that’s right. The DH has to shoot and move, shoot and move. Because she’s a ranged glass cannon. And that’s how ranged glass cannons are supposed to play. As designed. Hey look, the class is being played as designed. Neato.

    The fact that others can wildly charge in while pouring out an endless stream of AOE DPS is clearly NOT by design (with the possible exception of the Barb) which is why everyone else is broken, not the DH.

  43. Right, except for the part where you’re doing no dps while moving, and low dps while not moving, so you’re running around trying (and failing) to dodge attacks while having both weaker offense and weaker defense than every other class in the game.

    And the part where you currently cannot stay at range, meaning you cannot function as intended even if you think tickling the enemies while every other class does their deeps is working as intended. If you do, go work for Blizzard. You’ll fit right in.

    In absolutely every other game the ranged glass cannon 1: Actually does DPS. 2: Actually is ranged. And so the part about 3: Dies easily. is a balancing mechanism, and not taking the fail and then doubling it.

  44. QUOTE

    Isnt auto-hit a rather classic RPG mechanism though?
    yes, but arpg are hybrid games and like most hybrid games. they can be designed in any number of ways and with varying degrees of abstraction. some aprg like diablo are designed so that players can control the movement of their character as in an action game, but combat is largely abstracted by the game like in a crpg. conversely, other arpg are designed to give players not only control of the movement of their character, but combat outcome is largely determined by the player's actions. the D3 team decided to stick with the former. 
    
    
    I've heard this argument before but it makes no sense to me since D1 and D2 didn't have this mechanic and didn't have this problem.
    d2 had it and all the games were designed around abstraction to a degree. it just wasn't as obvious in d2 compared to d3. however, i agree abstraction has nothing to do with keeping defensive stats relevant. again, it's largely a designer's choice as to how they feel combat is going to be handled in the game.
    
    
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsuJXNeLm-4
    
    					
    					
    															
    					
    				
  45. QUOTE

    In absolutely every other game the ranged glass cannon 1: Actually does DPS. 2: Actually is ranged. And so the part about 3: Dies easily. is a balancing mechanism, and not taking the fail and then doubling it.

    All classes should have build options to make them have good survivability for HC, in exchange for dmg etc. of course.
    “Dying easy” is not a reasonable counterbalance to dmg for a whole class. It is a good balance for picking different builds within a class however. There should be glass cannon mages and “survivability” mages.
    Same for DH.
    Problem is their survivability comes from being able to survive in melee, which does indeed feel silly for a ranged archetype.

    How hard can it really be to make ranged classes have good survivability from ranged dmg and less survivability from melee dmg.

    That way, yeah, a ranged class would need to keep range from the melee mobs – through kiting or cc – but they wouldnt have to move 90% of the time – from mortars, arrows etc – just to stay alive. Depending on their build of course.

    Maybe ranged classes should get a 30% dmg reduction from ranged dmg, similar to melees 30% dmg reduction to everything?

  46. QUOTE

    Right, except for the part where you're doing no dps while moving...

    You mean like 90% of the all skills for all classes in the game?

  47. QUOTE

    I'm saying they made tornados overpowered. The melee wiz just so happens to have tornados. It does however explain why ranged wizards don't work. If it wasn't for that, wizards wouldn't have any builds and would actually be worse than DHers.
    
    Even if ranged combat worked the DH skills are all just click and fire, done. No synergy or nothing, and that's why 200k dps can barely do MP5 when any other class can do MP 10 with that.

    I do agree that twisters are extremely powerful, but they aren’t the only reason melee Wizards exist. In addition to the extremely strong but still overrated SNS and traditional windup, I’ve also played LL/Spectral Blades + Meteor, Sleet Storm, and Archon. With the obvious exception of SNS and basic windup, I didn’t use tornadoes in any of these builds, but they were all melee or relatively close range, and they all outclassed any DH or ranged Wizard build.

    To be clear about the DH, I have no problem with “high damage fragile ranged class” being the archetype around which she’s designed. The problem I have is that she falls short of that archetype. Demon Hunters can get high sheet dps, but they’re actually dead last in both burst damage and effective dps. Oddly, she can actually get extremely bulky and has the highest LS% in the game (Shadow Power alone gives 15% vs the Barb’s max of 12%). I feel like dual hand crossbow is supposed to be her signature playstyle, yet its fair and away her the least competitive option, which feels a little strange since the DH is also supposed to be the Rule of Cool class.

    To be honest, I actually like that the Wizard is basically the third melee class. I’d like to see the expansion introduce a ranged STR class and then officially re-balance the Wizard as a close-ranged fighter, but I understand that I’m probably in the minority on this.

    Anyway, I’m not all that bothered by the game’s hit detection. I think basic projectiles move too fast and you should be able to dodge melee attacks, and I don’t like that it isn’t possible to sidestep telegraphed melee attacks, but these things only bother me because they read poorly and feel illogical in a way that feels and looks shoddy (Siegebreaker grab is not something you should see in a AAA game) and breaks my suspension of disbelief. In the overall context of game balance, they’re probably fine.

  48. QUOTE]To be honest, I actually like that the Wizard is basically the third melee class. I’d like to see the expansion introduce a ranged STR class and then officially re-balance the Wizard as a close-ranged fighter, but I understand that I’m probably in the minority on this.[/QUOTE]

    It’s very cool that there are these strong close range Wiz builds but it’d be even cooler if there were strong close AND range builds. I’d hate to see the ranged option removed/rebalanced away.

    [QUOTE

    To be honest, I actually like that the Wizard is basically the third  melee class. I'd like to see the expansion introduce a ranged STR class  and then officially re-balance the Wizard as a close-ranged fighter, but  I understand that I'm probably in the minority on this.
    
    It's very cool that there are these strong close range Wiz builds but it'd be even cooler if there were strong close AND range builds. I'd hate to see the ranged option removed/rebalanced away. 
    
    
    
    To be clear about the DH, I have no problem with "high damage fragile ranged class" being the archetype around which she's designed. The problem I have is that she falls short of that archetype. Demon Hunters can get high sheet dps, but they're actually dead last in both burst damage and effective dps. They actually get an oddly high amount of bulk and have the highest LS% in the game (Shadow Power alone gives 15% vs the Barb's max of 12%), and are really good at essentially winning through attrition by avoiding huge bursts of damage and sustaining through everything else (e.g. doing exactly what Wyatt wants ranged classes to do). The class functions fine and is viable at a high level, but as you get to a higher level of play it starts to handle in weird, counter-intuitive ways.
    
    Which really just requires that those bursts of damage be more bursty which really is just some number tweaking, not a wholesale character redesign. The design is solid, it just needs some proper rebalancing. 
    
    Anyway, I'm not all that bothered by the game's hit detection. I think basic projectiles move too fast and you should be able to dodge melee attacks, and I don't like that it isn't possible to sidestep telegraphed melee attacks, but these things only bother me because they read poorly and feel illogical in a way that feels and looks shoddy (Siegebreaker grab is not something you should see in a AAA game) and breaks my suspension of disbelief. In the overall context of game balance, they're probably fine.
    
    
    
    Anyway, I'm not all that bothered by the game's hit detection. I think  basic projectiles move too fast and you should be able to dodge melee  attacks, and I don't like that it isn't possible to sidestep telegraphed  melee attacks, but these things only bother me because they read poorly  and feel illogical in a way that feels and looks shoddy (Siegebreaker  grab is not something you should see in a AAA game) and breaks my  suspension of disbelief. In the overall context of game balance, they're  probably fine. 
    
    The problem is that the ranged and glass cannon type builds depend on the ability to stay away and avoid too many hits. There are currently too many game mechanics that make that difficult or impractical. Asides from the Barb, the majority of people using the other classes are using the "oh crap" escape skills like Gloom which to me says that those kinds of moments are far too strong and far too common. (Vortex and Jailer being the worst offenders, IMO, but certainly not the only.)
  49. QUOTE

    How hard can it really be to make ranged  classes have good survivability from ranged dmg and less survivability  from melee dmg.
    
    That way, yeah, a ranged class would need to keep range from the melee  mobs - through kiting or cc - but they wouldnt have to move 90% of the  time - from mortars, arrows etc - just to stay alive. Depending on their  build of course.
    
    Funny thing is that most of the nat's  set is bad for defense overall. And then you have the boots which are  great for defense, second only to Ice Climbers. And they have melee  damage reduction.
    
    
    You mean like 90% of the all skills for all classes in the game?
    
    Yeah, but melee characters don't move that much. That means much  higher dps uptime, and getting past dps checks much more easily even  with lower listed and lower real dps.
    
    My first character was  Wizard, getting past the Butcher took many attempts because of the  enrage timer + bad gear due to it being June or July last year.
    
    Demon Hunter was next, she had better gear, but had a harder time. Why? Less real dps, despite higher listed dps.
    
    Monk was next, Monk did less damage, Monk rofflestomped Butcher.
    
    Barb was next, Barb did even less damage, Barb had an even easier time.
    
    Main difference? First two had to kite, second two only had to dodge fire and charges.
    
    
    I do agree that twisters are extremely powerful, but they aren't the only reason melee Wizards exist. In addition to the extremely strong (but still overrated) SNS and traditional windup, I've also played LL/Spectral Blades + Meteor, Sleet Storm, and Archon. With the obvious exception of SNS and basic windup, I didn't use tornadoes in any of these builds, but they were all melee or relatively close range, and they all outclassed any DH or ranged Wizard build. The strong parts of the Wizard's kit almost all work better at point blank or extremely short range. I do believe that the dev team made an honest effort to make her a ranged class, they just somehow managed to mess up and accidentally make a melee one instead.
    
    People use tornados because they work best. The key to the build though is Critical Mass, without that Wizards have no builds. Which is about what you'd expect when you put a bunch of cooldowns on a class that aren't worth using without cooldown reduction.
    
    The only Wizard that can legitly be called ranged is the laser Wizard... which they are talking about nerfing right along with CM. The other ranged skills? Worse even than DH skills.
    
    

    To be clear about the DH, I have no problem with "high damage fragile ranged class" being the archetype around which she's designed. The problem I have is that she falls short of that archetype. Demon Hunters can get high sheet dps, but they're actually dead last in both burst damage and effective dps. They actually get an oddly high amount of bulk and have the highest LS% in the game (Shadow Power alone gives 15% vs the Barb's max of 12%), and are really good at essentially winning through attrition by avoiding huge bursts of damage and sustaining through everything else (e.g. doing exactly what Wyatt wants ranged classes to do). The class functions fine and is viable at a high level, but as you get to a higher level of play it starts to handle in weird, counter-intuitive ways.

    
    Yes, exactly. When something's just worse offensively and defensively it gets kicked down to a lower tier. Except D3 only has one tier, "Can play the game." So dropping lower than that means you can't play the game.
    
    

    Something of an aside, but I feel like dual hand crossbow is supposed to be her signature playstyle, yet its fair and away her the least competitive option, which feels a little strange since the DH is also supposed to be the Rule of Cool class.

    
    A very common trend in these sorts of games is to deliberately introduce trap options. They look cool, so players will be tempted to select them but they don't function at all. Hand crossbows being fast, leading to hatred management problems is a prime example of this. Well that and you alternate between hands, instead of just firing both at once and making the offhand do half damage or something.
    
    Anyways, the problems with ranged classes are:
    
    Ranged doesn't grant any advantages. You still get hit, even by melee attacks, and attempting to dodge doesn't really help and actively hinders you. The game is telling you just stand still, your numbers vs their numbers and bigger numbers wins and don't try and use any "skill" because that isn't fun.
    
    Ranged can't stay at ranged. Between enemies having enough HP on higher MPs to not die before they reach you, high speed enemies, and abilities that put enemies in melee range of you (not just vortex) you're gonna end up in melee whether you like it or not.
    
    You can fix these by adding in proper hit detection and more immobilize/slow effects, but that still leaves the other problem.
    
    DHers have no skill synergy. Every other class does. They also don't have any really powerful skills. Every other class does. You need at least one of those to have a good build, and the entire class lacks both. So even if ranged combat is made to work DHers still won't. And really, DHers are the only real ranged class in the game. WDs are good at mid range, their long range skills suck. Wizards have one good long range skill, it's getting nerfed. Barbs/Monks don't really have ranged skills at all (lol weapon throw).
    
    The best of DHers currently bad skills? Rapid Fire, a skill you have to stand still in order to use. That goes against the whole dodge attacks thing even if you could. It's also single target in an AoE focused game, but that's a meta problem, not a class problem.
  50. QUOTE

    Yeah, but melee characters don't move that much. That means much  higher dps uptime, and getting past dps checks much more easily even  with lower listed and lower real dps.

    I actually think this is a part of the problem. Ranged characters should be spending time moving away from monsters, but melee characters should also be spending a decent amount of time moving towards monsters – namely ranged monsters (who should be moving away from charging melee monsters) and dangerous priority targets. But the game is far too heavily skewed towards monsters that run at you and there are FAR too few “priority targets” for this to be an issue melee has to worry about much. I’m disappointed in this area – the D3 monster design should be much more varied (TL2 did this very, very well IMO).

  51. QUOTE

    Seems to me the Diablo 3 team tried to hit the middle-ground here. Combat is abstracted for some of the dmg, while movement matters a lot for other dmg - or at least it did back at release. I personally like that middle-ground.

    if combat in a crpg or tabletop game is 100% abstract. games like Diablo 1, 2 and 3, WoW, TL, PoE, etc would be about 75% abstract/25% action. again, players can control the movement of their character as in an action game, but combat is largely calculated or abstracted by the game.

    less abstract games like the Souls series, Skyrim, Witcher Dragon’s Dogma, KoA, etc fall in the 50/50 or 25/75 range. generally, less abstract designs tends place most of the burden of combat outcomes on the player rather than the game by giving players more control and options over their character in combat beyond simple movement. thus, players may be able to dodge, roll, block, jump, parry, backdash, etc. on a side note, it’s actually interesting the console version gets an evade button, but the pc version does not. it will be really hilarious if you can roll cancel or it comes with invincibility frames.

  52. I guess it is definitely too late for the wizard to become ranged. But it is a cool melee character. And you can teleport even if jailed so vortex is the major problem. I agree that it would be cool to have a true ranged wizard (druid ? elementalist ?) for D3X.

  53. Heh…I just had a silly idea…one of my least favorite things in the game is Vortex and it’s one of things that makes ranged difficult. If it’s not going away, how about something similar to make melee characters life’s more difficult – a property which randomly when within melee range, a powerful and deadly Wave of Force pushes you back 40 yards. It’d have pretty much the exact same impact that Vortex has for ranged characters but only affecting melee and doing a tiny, tiny bit to give ranged some advantage in some situations. (Knockback and Nightmare kinda sorta do this but without nearly as much potential taking giant damage.)

  54. QUOTE

    Heh...I just had a silly idea...one of my least favorite things in the game is Vortex and it's one of things that makes ranged difficult. If it's not going away, how about something similar to make melee characters life's more difficult - a property which randomly when within melee range, a powerful and deadly Wave of Force pushes you back 40 yards. It'd have pretty much the exact same impact that Vortex has for ranged characters but only affecting melee and doing a tiny, tiny bit to give ranged 

    some advantage in some situations. (Knockback and Nightmare kinda sorta do this but without nearly as much potential taking giant damage.)

    Isn’t that basically Plagued, in theory? And kinda Molten, too.

  55. QUOTE

    Isn't that basically Plagued, in theory? And kinda Molten, too.

    No, because they don’t push you way out of melee range the way Vortex pulls you way out of far range. The point being to do something to make staying close harder, the way so much stuff makes staying far hard. Making ranged monsters as aggressive about staying away as melee monsters are at getting to you would also help.

  56. QUOTE

    I actually think this is some part of the problem. Ranged characters should be spending time moving 
    away 
    from monsters, but melee characters should also be spending a decent amount of time moving 
    towards 
    monsters  - namely ranged monsters (who should be moving away from charging melee  monsters) and dangerous priority targets. (There should also be some  high-end melee monsters that even the Barb can't just stand still and  take their punishment such as Mallet Lords.) But the game is far too  heavily skewed towards monsters that run at you and there are FAR too  few "priority targets" for this to be an issue melee has to worry about  much. Remember the dreaded D1 Succubus? I'm disappointed in this area -  the D3 monster design should be much more varied (TL2 did this very,  very well IMO).
    
    Well, they do in some areas. Those areas don't get run for the same  reason, or are barely tolerated (those zombie spawners, javelin  throwers, etc).
    
    The D1 Succubus you either cornered, or telefragged,  or stone cursed. Since the first was annoying and time consuming you  went for one of the other two. And sure you could go caster in D1. Can  you do it in D3?
    
    
    Isn't that basically Plagued, in theory? And kinda Molten, too.
    
    This. In theory these are anti melee, in practice they're like Reflect Damage - merely a lifesteal gearcheck.
    
    Vortex should just be gravity wells. If you just stand there you'll be in melee eventually, but you can move away (more slowly), it's not an instant grab. Either that or make it dodgable like the Butcher grab, that one's fine (but has huge hitboxes).
  57. QUOTE

    Well, they do in some areas. Those areas  don't get run for the same  reason, or are barely tolerated (those  zombie spawners, javelin  throwers, etc).

    I wouldn’t really say either of those really run away from you in any meaningful way. Certainly not the way zillions of creative ways melee monsters have of getting in your face.

    Vortex should just be gravity wells. If you just stand there you'll be in melee eventually, but you can move away (more slowly), it's not an instant grab. Either that or make it dodgable like the Butcher grab, that one's fine (but has huge hitboxes).

    Totally agree but I doubt it’ll ever happen. Boo.

  58. QUOTE

    No, because they don't push you way out of melee range the way Vortex pulls you way out of far range.  The point being to do 

    something to make staying close harder, the way so much stuff makes staying far hard. Making ranged monsters as aggressive about staying away as melee monsters are at getting to you would also help.

    I can see where you’re coming from, but I sometimes actually have trouble staying in Melee against Molten/Plagued because I can’t outheal the incoming tick damage from the fire/goo puddles. So it’s not a “forced knockback” but it is a “get out of the melee fire” sort of thing. It forces me to wind around to a non-contaminated patch of ground… or pop Serenity or something. (Which, of course, is the same thing that happens when I get vortexed and pop Smoke Screen / Teleport / Spirit Walk).

  59. Gravity well would be a nice change.

  60. QUOTE

    Gravity well would be a nice change.   Once again too much incoming healing in the game.
    
    As opposed to what? Making combat so slow you'll never ever die unless you d/c?
    
    
    I  wouldn't really say either of those really run away from you in  any  meaningful way. Certainly not the way zillions of creative ways  melee  monsters have of getting in your face.
    
    As someone who has had elite spitters run all the way across the entire  map like they were a D1 Succubus... you're wrong. Thing is most of those  enemy types just get skipped. With stuff like vortex you don't  necessarily have a choice. Because it isn't a specific enemy type or  area, it's a randomly appearing thing.
    
    
    Totally agree but I doubt it'll ever happen. Boo.
    
    They're already discussing "black holes" Copy paste is their  specialty. It's actually fairly likely, assuming someone gives em the  idea.
    
    
    I can see where you're coming from, but I sometimes actually have trouble staying in Melee against Molten/Plagued because I can't outheal the incoming tick damage from the fire/goo puddles. So it's not a "forced knockback" but it is a "get out of the melee fire" sort of thing. It forces me to wind around to a non-contaminated patch of ground... or pop Serenity or something. (Which, of course, is the same thing that happens when I get vortexed and pop Smoke Screen / Teleport / Spirit Walk).
    
    Well, you play self found. No offense or nothing, but is anyone surprised self found characters have difficulties with gear checks in this game? That said Plagued damage does ramp up over time, stay in it too long and you can't outheal it even with good recovery... course, if your dps is good you'll kill them before that.
  61. QUOTE

    As someone who has had elite spitters run all the way across the entire  map like they were a D1 Succubus... you're wrong. Thing is most of those  enemy types just get skipped. With stuff like vortex you don't  necessarily have a choice. Because it isn't a specific enemy type or  area, it's a randomly appearing thing.

    Yes, there are a handful in the game. A very small few who sometimes do this. But if they were actually relatively common, even half as common as the many ultra-swarmy melee monsters, you couldn’t just skip them as they’d be all over the place. Plus range characters would actually be able to fight them while melee chars would have a hard time sliding them a bit towards more equal footing.

  62. QUOTE

    As opposed to what? Making combat so slow you'll never ever die unless you d/c?

    Opposed to actually having to run out of poison pools on the ground.
    And every other ground-aoe thing from elites.

  63. QUOTE

    Well, you play self found. No offense or nothing, but is anyone surprised self found characters have difficulties with gear checks in this game? That said Plagued damage does ramp up over time, stay in it too long and you can't outheal it even with good recovery... course, if your dps is good you'll kill them before that.

    Not complaining about the gear check nature of it, just saying, it has that “get out of melee for a while” effect on me. Which a Wave of Force would also… force.

  64. QUOTE

    Something randomly spawning mobs could solve.

    Ah yes, to go back to the good old days when you didn’t know exactly which enemy types would be in every level (outside the occasional random dungeon). Such a simple and obvious improvement and yet a year later, here we are. *sigh*

  65. QUOTE

    Yes, there are a handful in the game. A very  small few who sometimes do this. But if they were actually relatively  common, even half as common (or dangerous) as the many ultra-swarmy  melee monsters, you couldn't "just skip them" as they'd be all over the  place shooting stuff at you. Plus range characters would actually be at  an advantage fighting them which is the whole point.
    
    Well  to be fair not every mob is an elite pack with vortex. Thing is when  you get one, or with teleporter, or just fast moving foes you die, and  when you get an enemy that runs away from you you just get annoyed. If  you do get dangerous ranged mobs... ever gone in a high MP Northern  Highlands game? You take two dozen javs to the face and instantly  explode unless you're built like a HC character. Melee, ranged, don't  matter. So dangerous ranged enemies aren't anti melee, they're anti  everyone.
    
    
    Opposed to actually having to run out of poison pools on the ground.
    And every other ground-aoe thing from elites.
    
    
    Something randomly spawning mobs could solve.
    
    Even if plagued really does bother you, you literally click a half  inch away from your current position and you're out of it. Which is  still nothing like the dps downtime imposed by having an enemy chase you  and you're running from it.
    
    Randomly spawning mobs wouldn't really do anything except reduce the list of farming routes (from 1, lol).
    
    
    Ah yes, to go back to the good old days when you didn't know exactly which enemy types would be in every level (outside the occasional random dungeon). Such a simple and obvious improvement and yet a year later, here we are. *sigh*
    
    D1 didn't have that many enemy types that could or could not appear, at least in the sense of warranting a different approach in fighting them. Once you established no Black Deaths, none of those invisible stalker guys, and none of those acid spitters... you were probably fine. And if there were any of those present, well you knew how to deal with them.
  66. QUOTE

    So dangerous ranged enemies aren't anti melee, they're anti  everyone.

    Well, yes, dangerous almost-anything is anti-everyone – but ranged attacks do have the clear advantage, especially fast skills like lazors.

     D1 didn't have that many enemy types that could or could not appear, at least in the sense of warranting a different approach in fighting them. Once you established no Black Deaths, none of those invisible stalker guys, and none of those acid spitters... you were probably fine. And if there were any of those present, well you knew how to deal with them.

    Which means even the primitive D1 beats D3 in this aspect!!

  67. QUOTE

    Well, yes, dangerous almost-anything is anti-everyone - but ranged attacks do have the clear advantage, especially fast skills like lazors. 
    
    
    
    Which means even the primitive D1 beats D3 in this aspect!!
    
    Actually, dangerous melee would be pro ranged... if they could be kept away from. But those javelin guys? Even if their hitboxes work properly you either have incredible EHP or stop = die.
    
    And lol. Random enemy types not gonna help dude. Worst case, people reset game if they see an enemy they don't like. In D2 sure there were random enemies. How many were present in the room where you fought baal? Not outside it, not on the same floor, not in the worldstone keep level 2 or 3 but on that one screen?
  68. QUOTE

    Worst case, people reset game if they see an enemy they don't like.

    That doesn’t sound very efficient, which is all that matters to some people. Also, it’d be less boring to the rest of us.

  69. QUOTE

    That doesn't sound very efficient, which is all that matters to some people. Even if not, at least it'd be less boring to the rest of us not willing to be quite so aggressively efficient at all cost..
    
    Going out into the fields, looking at enemies then leaving = 15 seconds at most.
    
    Dealing with a bad enemy mix = likely a lot longer than 15 seconds.
    
    Some people reset if the crypt isn't there. It takes longer than that to check both its spawn points.
  70. Make it random enough that people are unlikely to find a game without the enemies they don’t like.

    Add more enemies of the type people dont like! Clearly those enemies must be doing something right.

  71. QUOTE

    Add more enemies of the type people dont like!

    If by “don’t like” we mean “take some time and effort to fight” than yes. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  72. People who like to kite with a range build (hence playing a borderline MP) are disadvantaged by some affixes (vortex, jailer, very fast, …). I would like to see this fixed since it was the way I liked to play D1 and D2.

  73. QUOTE

    Make it random enough that people are unlikely to find a game without the enemies they don't like.
    
    Add more enemies of the type people dont like! Clearly those enemies must be doing something right.

    Because what D3 needs is to annoy and frustrate players more amirite?

    This discussion was going somewhere productive, now it’s going full retard. Stuff like this is the reason Wyatt and team think terrible ideas are good.

  74. As Yovargas says, people are annoyed the second they meet a challenging mob. They cried about reflect, shielding etc. Adding more enemies (and buff the current ones) back so they actually require that you adjust to them, rather than having one ‘spin to win’-solution against all enemies, that would annoy many people, but it would be a better game for it.

  75. QUOTE

    As Yovargas says, people are annoyed the second they meet a challenging mob.
    They cried about reflect, shielding etc.
    Adding more enemies (and buff the current ones) back so they actually require that you adjust to them, rather than having one 'spin to win'-solution against all enemies, that would annoy many people, but it would be a better game for it.
    
    I dont see frustration as something bad if it comes from added challenge.
    Demon Souls/Dark Souls could be highly frustrating sometimes imo. And were still best games of the decade.
    
    Not to say that Diablo should be anything like those. But challenge is always nice.

    Souls games were frustrating and also rewarding. D3’s only managed half the equation. Adding more of the wrong half won’t help. If the current Diablo team made a souls game O&S would warp over the screen and hit you and OHKO you, then if you beat them you get a broken sword and some marvelous man boobs.

    PS: WW Barbs have no ****s to give about reflect, that’s a DH killer. Everyone hates shielding.

  76. QUOTE

    PS: WW Barbs have no ****s to give about reflect, that's a DH killer. Everyone hates shielding.

    WW Barb shouldn’t exist anyway.

  77. QUOTE

    WW Barb shouldn't exist anyway.
    
    If people get one-shot killed, then clearly they aren't geared for it.
    
    Which brings us back to reflect = ls gearcheck, something DHers have a hard time getting and Barbs have an easy time getting.

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