Vote: How to Fix the Demon Hunter Squishiness Problem?


One of the topics near to my heart is the Demon Hunter Squishiness problem. That class was my first main and I still enjoy playing her, but it’s mostly a memory now that I play Hardcore full time. The DH has awesome killing power, but she’s the most fragile class in the game, and even in very expensive gear she’s prone to sudden death from minor mistakes that other classes can survive.

I wouldn’t object to sweeping changes to the class, such as something to address the fact that DiabloWikiDex boosts DiabloWikiDodge, which is of much less survival benefit than DiabloWikiRes All or DiabloWikiDefense, but in the short term I think the devs should tack on a death-cheating passive of the type enjoyed by the Wizard, Witch Doctor, and Monk. I pitched the devs on that during our recent podcast interview and while Wyatt didn’t exactly disagree, he certainly didn’t sign on.

Flux: Let’s talk about death. And avoiding it. Given that I play Hardcore, this is a topic that’s in my head. Monks have DiabloWikiNear Death Experience. Wizards have DiabloWikiUnstable Anomaly. Witch Doctors have DiabloWikiSpirit Vessel. And Barbarians don’t need death cheating skills. Why doesn’t the poor Demon Hunter get one? The squishiest class in the game. I love DHs in softcore but I’ve given up on playing them in Hardcore since there’s such a razor thin margin for error.

It seems like you guys could so easily tack on some work around. Just rip off Spirit Vessel; under 10% hit points with a Demon Hunter you auto-cast DiabloWikiSmoke Screen with a 2 second duration and it’s got a two minute cooldown. Just put that into the game right now as part of DiabloWikiTactical Advantage of DiabloWikiPerfectionist or something. Or replace DiabloWikiGrenadier, which has a death effect that no one has ever actually used on purpose.

Wyatt Cheng: So uh, I’m going to take your question and much like earlier, use the opportunity to talk about something that’s related but different. If that’s okay?

Flux: That is your skill set.

Wyatt Cheng: *laughter* Okay. And that’s sort of like class design in general. I know what players do, and designers do it too. Actually, humans do this. We draw comparisons between different classes. Class A has this, Class B has this, so logically Class C should have it also. I think that it’s a line of reasoning that’s used to justify a buff to something, to a skill. Another example I’ll throw out. The Demon Hunter has Vault. The Barbarian has Leap. The Wizard has Teleport. Why doesn’t the Witch Doctor get a teleport? Clearly the Witch Doctor should have an instant move ability as well.

My general reaction to this is… the classes aren’t meant to be the same. And I don’t want to be in a position where all of our classes come to be so homogenous that they have different-colored versions of the same skill. I think it’s good that a class has something that they’re really envious of that other class. And the other classes are really envious of the first class.

It’s good when the classes have something that’s like, the other classes are super overpowered, and everyone is saying that. Or, better yet, I love my class because I have skill X that nobody else has. Or I can do X and Y together that no one else can.

To wrap up my segue, I wouldn’t make a change based on the argument that 4 classes have it so the 5th should too. I’d be more inclined to ask how we can make them all cool and unique. If the Demon Hunter has issues with Hardcore survivability, can we address that problem in a manner that is unique and cool to the Demon Hunter itself.

Flux: I agree completely with you philosophically, but like 1% of players in Hardcore games in Inferno are Demon Hunters, and this seems like a really easy and direct fix, and I’ve benefited directly many times from the equivalent skills on my Witch Doctor and Monk.

Not everyone agrees with me or Wyatt, of course. Here’s a quote from the comments to give the alternative opinion:

Pretty easy to gear up DH with EHP gear and with a good tank build more than hold your own tanking with the other toons. Perfectionist, numbing traps, guardian turrets, boar companion combined with a decet set of EHP gear makes the DH super tank. Throw in Shadow Power/Gloom and the same DH becomes godlike on the correct MP levels. DH is only super squishy if you want it to be…
SneakyTails

That’s true; the DH can be made quite tanky and will only die once in a while. However I’m coming at this from the HC perspective, where “once in a while” is forever. I know some HC players who have DHs in the high paragon levels, but their gear is astonishingly good/expensive, much better than comparable Wizard or WD require, and I think those classes, and probably the Monk as well, would be much less often seen in HC if they couldn’t occasionally cheat death.

I am open to the debate that no class should have a death-cheating passive, but since 3 of them do, and those 3 are all clearly less prone to sudden death than the DH, it’s a pretty obvious inequality. And annoying, since it could be fixed in a snap. Anyway, enough pre-debate. Vote, then debate in comments. Pick the vote option that most matches your opinion and we’ll see how math stacks up to hyperbole.


What fix would you most like to see for the Demon Hunter's squishiness?

View Results

Loading ... Loading ...

Comments

You're not logged in but can still post comments. Register or login to remember your details.
  1. Fixing demon hunters is probably not in the top 10 of the issues with D3.

    #1 is fixing the social tools. If they don’t make this game more social, its dead anyway. The D3 community is somewhere between sparse and nonexistent at this point. But Bnet 2.0 accomplished that. What sad is I listened to various developers interviews and they don’t seem to even recognize that Bnet 2.0 is a CRISIS. So, I dunno what to say.

    They also need to simply give players more freedom and access with the buttons, controls, and ability to move between acts. They need to fix itemization. Somewhere, way down the line, is demon hunters.

    • Social tools ain’t much if no one actually wants to play the game. And can’t you social tool thumpers stay on topic for one second here? Yeesh.

    • 1# is social tools? Are you freaking kidding me? You sound like a typical WoW player and want D3 to be your new WoW game. Dude, Diablo is not supposed to be about being social… Its about awesome, powerful, Diverse, badass’s, killing Demons and finding GOOD loot while doing it. Its about Darkness, evil, blood and gore, pentagrams and burning upside down crosses! D3 needs to be Moar social? What is this? Diablo 1-2 is wonderful because for people like me who want to play solo or with IRL friends, we can on SP. D3 on the other hand you have to play with others to get the most out of the game thanks to 1.08.

      I do agree with you however that fixing DH is ridiculous compared to the other 99 problems. THough Social Tools? ….isn’t 1 of those. Id rather see them work on the actually game than play around with cosmetics. Its like if a car gets in an accident, then the owners decide to fix the paint job before banging out the dents or fixing the engine first. It makes no sense but thats not wholly the Devs fault, basically the remaining D3 players (WoW) want this kind of stuff done, they like the pretty graphics and socializing with strangers. They think the game is good and want more balance, less loot drops, instant lvl 60, more social blah blah WOW blah.

      Diablo fans that have been playing it since 1996-98 want large maps, harder monsters, true pvp, stat/skill allocation (diversity and reason to make same class characters), better LOOT, runes/jewels/charms back, farmable boss’s, memorable NPC’s, darker Story (Screw PG D3, its practically WOW),unbalanced characters (WoW is for balance, Diablo is for outrageous strong characters to plow down demons),more shrines (monster shringes anyone? what about those gem shrines?), better gem drops, bring back TC80=90 loot all D3 items are lvl 63 really lame, better crafting that required a thought process (D3 crafting is so simplified) and on and on.. Wiki the older games for features I didnt mention. D3 is 00001./1 the game Diablo 1-2 were as far as features go, its so dumbed down.

      Current D3 fans like yourself and devs alike would be of MUCH benefit to the franchise to play the older games and see what I am talking about. Then you will realize D3 is an insult to Diablo fans world wide, why we are so angry about it as well as why it is called D3 and not worthy of being called a Diablo game. I have lost almost all hope of this franchise ever recovering from the castrophy D3 is and reclaiming its former glory, but who knows, if these Devs wake the hell up and realize theyd make 10X more money making the game like a Diablo game vs Making it like WoW game, then there might be hope. Until then, fans like myself stay far away and play the older games Diablo 1-2 to get our fix.

      Who cares about DH? They need to show us some freaking substance and that they care about fixing the root of the problems and not the Barby doll cosmetic crap that is really just a waste of man power and time. They don’t seem to care about the fans who made the franchise what it was.. Oh well, what can we do?

      -Zero

      • I completely disagree. Blizzard’s games weren’t exceptional. The secret to their success was the robust social tools they provided. What is TRULY addicting, what kept bringing players back, were the friendships people forged while playing Blizzard games. There were battle.net channels that effectively WAS the internet default destination for a good number of players.

        They’ve built bnet 2.0 to where they can never happen again. And that is the core problem.

        • Dude, what are you talking about? Bnet sucked back in the ol days and still does today. Its way more fun to hook up via IP than to hop on servers for socializing. Just look around these forums, there is still a vibrant community for D1/2 that still do it this way and avoid Bnet at all cost. Big reasons, you can’t mod your game over servers, botters/hackers are super prevalent on servers, loot drops are incredibly regulated on Bnet servers, you cant use muling services for your items on bnet (goes back to D1 muling apps), cant backup your saved game since it doesn’t exist outside the server, no time traveling which means better patches for obtaining loot like 1.09 in D2 can’t be played and this list goes on and on…

          Its apparent your opinion of what is ADDICTING is severely different from the rest of us diehard Diablo fans. WoW is all about socializing, always has been. Diablo games aren’t dependent on others to play like WoW, thus why WoW is more like a social network than a video game. We don’t like spending money to play games, we dont like playing online 24/7, we like finding loot, using our brains, and most of all CHALLENGE… Oh and super powerful characters! Screw balance. Screw forced socializing.

          Socializing on Bnet is the bottom of our list for why we play Diablo. PERIOD.

          Making incredibly strong characters, enjoying a dark demented story and finding glorious loot is what makes Diablo games ADDICTING! Do people do 5000 AT runs on D2 to socialize? LMAO Your delusional as to why diehard fans play Diablo.

          Your mentality as well as others currently playing D3 is why D3 sucks so bad. Do yourself and us fans a favor and play the older games to see what I am talking about. D3 is not even a Diablo game, its plainly a disgrace.

          -Zero

          • You’re just wrong. I used to be in one of the communities that sprung up on bnet. And it was built all around bnet. They would switch between playing starcraft, diablo, and war 3. But what made them play those games at all was bnet.

            I just don’t think you were there to understand.

          • I’m not going to buy D3X or D3X2 if there isn’t massive improvement to the social features. That’s not even an option on the table. If there was massive improvement in social features, and demon hunters stayed broken, sure I’d buy it.

            But this is an ONLINE game. ROBUST social features is a requirement. lol. What’s the point of being online if the social features are terrible?

          • You know what would be awesome? Is if the social features were robust enough so that Flux could have his ladders incorporated into an in-game system somehow. As it is, probably almost no-one even knows his ladders exist. If Blizzard did something like that, it could boost gameplay and active subs because people could track their ladder as they play, talk about it amongst the community IN GAME, give links to it in game. But Blizzard, in 2013, can’t even create some sort of interface to allow that to happen. The social features are practically non-existent.

            That would have been a GREAT question for Flux to ask the devs. Ask them: Look, I’ve created this great ladder system on my website. Any chance the social features could be improved so they can be incorporated into the game via chat channels or something???

            No, nothing.

            Doesn’t make any sense to me…

        • Blizzard don’t want people to hang out too comfortably in D3, because that’s for WoW. It’s rather easy to see through how they plan their games. Sad but true. If we could get recordings from all their design meetings, and meetings with the executives, we would get confirmation how dirty and brutal company business is on this level.

  2. well that’s clearly…
    -hc player choose “specially passive”
    -sc player choose (most) “I do not care” / “complete overhaul”
    questions?

  3. I think we have a case of double standard here. For once there is something challenging in the game and of course it has to be fixed. But in any other case you want more variety or changes to make the game less boring (aka difficult). Let’s remember the outrage about the impossibility of Inferno – and nowadays Inferno is considered a joke and we need MP. Surprisingly I agree with Wyatt on that one. oO
    And since there are quite a lot of P100 HC DH, and even more DH in the range P10-P30 I don’t think that DH are broken – they are just difficult.
    And comparing them to other classes is not helpful: I like to play DH because he is squishy and therefore difficult. If he were like other classes I wouldn’t find him interesting to play.

  4. The real problem is that ranged combat doesn’t function. Notice the DH that isn’t squishy just says screw it and goes melee facetank.

  5. QUOTE

    Social tools ain't much if no one actually wants to play the game. And can't you social tool thumpers stay on topic for one second here? Yeesh.

    Love the game, but I agree with Flux’s premise that the DH is fragile. I went back to the wizard because the DH lacks a get-the-hell-outta-here skill. Elite waller/desecrators and some other combinations were killing her pretty regularly.

  6. IMO, the DH works completely fine so long as you:

    Make at least a token investment in some kind of defense: Perfectionist, Boar Companion, vit on gear, all res on gear, amethyst in helm, etc.

    Take some combination of Gloom, Smoke Screen, Vault, Tactical Advantage, and Battle Scars/Backup Plan.

    Don’t play like a moron and actually use your mobility to your advantage.

    DH is squishy, but so are Wizards and WDs. If you have a non-pet WD, you have the same problem (but all WDs are built around killing everything instantly with Zombie Bears, which means that it’s no longer a defensive difference between the classes but an offensive one). If you have a non-Archon, non-CM/WW Wizard, you also have the same problem. So it’s not the defensive skills, it’s the lack of overpowering offensive skills that makes the DH forced to use mobility to survive. Every other class can either facetank perpetually, or kill things more quickly.

    Not that I care though, class balance is just something else for people to complain about. Easy enough to get all 5 classes to 60 and play whichever one you want at any time you want.

  7. Cheat death passives are lame, and so DH doesn’t need them as it would water things down.

    Nefing Inferno, MP levels, and density change has all worked against the tools the DH was designed with for the initial Inferno.

    The smoke screen nerf, that was intended to bandaid fix going invis and front loading ball lighting crits during original Inferno, needs to be reverted.

    DH’s tools need A LOT more CC! You can’t expect to kite forever, so the DH needs more/better tools to control mob movement so the DH can have a chance to position better.

    DH absolutely should not play like a tank turret. That’s not what the class is about to me.

    Flux guided the devs to bring up the issue of single target vs multi-target skills which I thought was interesting. DH I think does need more multi-target. Evasive fire, for example, should be 3 targets by default with one of the runes increasing it to 6 or 9 even.

    DH just needs to be modernized with with where the game is now, a cheat death passive would be a terrible band-aid.

  8. The Witch Doctor’s cheat death passive is pretty useless tbh.

    • Disagree, it’s an amazing utility skill. I can’t imagine playing without it and the various ways it enhances the gameplay.

    • The Witch doctors Spirit Vessel is the best death cheating passive IMO. Not only do you get it at level 30 but it also is the only one with some utility outside of cheating death in the form of cooldown reduction.

  9. The Demon Hunter possesses the best mobility skills of all the other classes, she doesn’t need another spirit vessel like skill.

    I played one character in HC and I beat Inferno, and I couldn’t think of any better class than the DH to do so (I play barb in SC). With Smoke Screen, Vault, Battle Scars and Tactical Advantage, the DH has all the tools to beat all the nasty mobility crippling abilities.

    Add a templar for crowd control, add Sentry for DPS, and your only job is just to not die.

    Fun ? No. Effective ? Yes.

    The DH has much better tools to avoid the situations where she should need a spirit vessel like skill than the other classes. Keyword for the DH is Prevention, not Reparation.

    The problem is perhaps that people complaining about the DH squishiness want to play it quite like in SC, much like it is possible to do with the other classes.

    What I am curious to know is if there is a MP level at which the so-called DH squishiness is really palpable compared to the other classes ?

  10. I don’t really understand why people want a “more tankish” DH, it’s the glass cannon adrenalin class, it’s supposed to be squishy and you’re supposed to be flying all over the screen trying to avoid stuff, if people want to stand there and face roll they are playing the wrong class, same as you wouldn’t play a wizard if you enjoyed melee, this isn’t the Amazon, there is no Amazon.
    Where the game has trouble with having a class like the DH is that the screen isn’t all that big and AoE attacks take up half the screen leaving you the only real options of keeping mobs center screen and skirting around the outside, or kite and neither work all that well. Eventually, due to the way the game is, you will run into a mob you can’t kite and can’t keep at the center of your screen who has an AoE attack and blammo, you’re done with absolutely nothing you could have done, dying to something you could have avoided but didn’t is gameplay, dying because you can’t do anything and the game just kills you off is as stupid now as it was in 1985 and has no excuse to exist.

    The good news is the escape and evade skills a DH has work (if you play it how it should be played and don’t try to “Barb” your way through Halls of Agony 3) they just need to work better, resource cost would be the first thing I’d be thinking of since it’s a quick way of at least addressing the issue of standing in a corner every 5 minutes because you’re out of discipline, especially when it’s an escape class and you tie the best escape skills to the worst resource, it’s like they made the 2 resource system just to screw with things for the sake of screwing with things. lol

    Besides the borked resource costs AoE damage reduction would be nice, kinda silly to have a “glass cannon” class that dies not from the mob he’s fighting but just because there’s so much glowing crap on the ground that he can’t stop long enough to fire a shot to leech some health, I see “has died…” with no reason or mob as the killer so much on my DH it’s almost like a running gag between me and the game now… The health regen passive would be something to consider boosting greatly, can’t remember the name off the top of my head but have it grant 2k regen or something crazy like that but it only activates when you are taking damage so while DH would still get spiked real easy for standing in the wrong place they could at least survive a molten/plagued without having to gear “tank mode” specifically for it.

    • I’d agree on not changing the DH’s play style. I talked about why I don’t play Wizards on a recent podcast, and it’s because they’re all too tanky in D3. I loved fast movement, teleporting, tri-tree artillery mage type Sorcs in D1 and D2. That build doesn’t exist in D3, and the DH is the only thing close to it and I love playing the class that way. It’s just not very compatible with HC.

      If none of the classes had a death-cheating passive I doubt I’d have ever thought of it for the DH. But since 3 of them do, and all 3 need it less than the DH does, it seems an obvious exclusion and an obvious fix. Judging by the vote results, that’s not as obvious as I’d like to be, though.

  11. Option 7. Increase disc regen via passives/items.

    As an former Legacy Natalya Set user I know what I say. Not only are your survival skills much better but also the game is much more fun. I couldn’t play my DH after dropping the legacy set, even though my DPS increased by 30%. I even managed to survive mp10 even though it was not feasible solo.

  12. QUOTE

    Option 7. Increase disc regen via passives/items.
    
    As an former Legacy Natalya Set user I know what I say. Not only are your survival skills much better but also the game is much more fun. I couldn't play my DH after dropping the legacy set, even though my DPS increased by 30%. I even managed to survive mp10 even though it was not feasible solo.

    Ahh yeah that’s a good point too, I sold my legacy Nats to buy some Barb stuff and haven’t touched my DH since ’cause it just doesn’t seem to “work” like it did before… and steamrolling with my Barb while I take a nap is just so much easier. πŸ˜›

  13. QUOTE

    The Witch doctors Spirit Vessel is the best death cheating passive IMO.  

    The Barbs not dying is the best death cheating passive… while Spirit Vessel is cool, I have to agree with the point that just slapping a “press this to live again” button on everything isn’t much of a solution, it should be something specific to the DH but at the same time it should be something we get sometime before Diablo 4.

  14. Problem is not the dh, just elite affixes frozen and vortex. These two affixes limit viable builds substantially.

  15. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – the other classes should be more like the DH, not the other way around. The DH requires awareness and quick reflexes to survive. This should be encouraged for all classes, not taken away from the one that really has it. Of course, they should also remove cheap insta-hits and “hit lag” while they’re at it. Because relying on skill is more fun than relying on gear.

  16. Really? How about undo the bullshit nerfing to grenades and caltrops. Before that, Demon Hunters had survivability.

  17. Maybe they shouldn’t nerf Crowd Control in inferno, cutting out the knees from the most important part of the DH’s toolkit. And, just like items, this requires a full, expansion level overhaul. They have to start over. And I agree, the problem isn’t the DH, it’s the other face-roll builds. Don’t make the game so easy a robot can do it.

    • Yes, removing the Inferno CC nerf would help the overall game tremendously. I’m sick of all those “slows monsters a tiny bit for a tiny amount of time” skills/runes.

  18. QUOTE

     Judging by the vote results, that's not as obvious as I'd like to be, though.

    Yeah but half those “remove them all” votes are from Barbs just wanting to see the other classes rage, you know that right? πŸ˜›

  19. Death cheat or not, it makes NO sense to have a skill trigger on death.

  20. QUOTE

    Death cheat or not, it makes NO sense to have a skill trigger on death.
    
    
    Makes perfect sense.
  21. Just yesterday I beat diablo in inferno with only vault(tumble) as caltrops (Torturous Ground) as defensive skills, since low levels. The secret is being focus on the game and being far from monsters. With the demon hunter you sneeze you are dead.

  22. DH needs fixing, I just don’t bother playing it anymore and I have quite high level gear, sure I can survive happily on MP 6 but why can my less expensive to gear other characters sit in MP10 all day never dying.

    To me it’s a gear issue and/or there’s a requirement for faster hatred/disc regen.

    Sure it’s meant to be squishy and a glass canyon that wipes out mobs before they can move but one hit and you’re dead. We need to have much higher DPS or better defense.

  23. I don’t think the correct answer was in the Poll.

    If it were up to me, I would give the Demon Hunter something that the other classes wish they had; be it offensive or defensive in nature…or both. I agree with Wyatt that not all classes should have abilities that can be directly compared to each other. I also believe that if each class cannot stand above every other class in some IMPORTANT way, then that class is a failure where design is concerned. As it stands now, the Demon Hunter falls under that category.

    Every class should have tools to deal with certain obstacles. If the Barb doesn’t need defensive abilities, then it should suffer in some way for this design choice. If the DH is in dire need of defensive abilities, then it should stand out tremendously in other ways.

    Having said that, I wouldn’t be opposed at all to revamping almost every skill/rune in the entire game. I think class design is a complete mess, much like itemization. It’s difficult to even discuss these concepts when so many skills remain utterly useless and itemization does nothing to help.

    • I also wanted to add that Wyatt seems to be overlooking the fact that skills will always be placed in either the defensive or offensive categories to some degree. This fact alone partially renders his argument invalid. If a class is lacking defensive capabilities in comparison to every other class, that’s not the same thing as saying that the DH has no, “oh crap” skill while the other classes do. The issue is that there aren’t enough valid options to replace the NEED for this “oh crap” skill. It’s a problem with the entire class, not just one skill in particular, or the lack of said skill.

  24. QUOTE

    I don't really understand why people want a "more tankish" DH, it's the glass cannon adrenalin class, it's supposed to be squishy and you're supposed to be flying all over the screen trying to avoid stuff, if people want to stand there and face roll they are playing the wrong class, same as you wouldn't play a wizard if you enjoyed melee, this isn't the Amazon, there is no Amazon.  

    Because the game demands it.

    Elite appears.
    Plagued/arcane.
    Vortex.

    Know how many times this sequence of events happened in just 4 runs? 3. Once all arcanes landed on the same spot then so did the vortex. Once another pack walled right after and the plagued/arcane was horde.

    Go tank or be a Deeds Hunter. That simple.

    Counter abilities don’t work because mobs can use their abilities more often and because they’re narrow. 4 defensive skills, and always the same skills died for everyone else a long time ago.

    • The answer is to fix the damnable Vortex and other cheap shots, not to make everyone a tank.

    • Can’t remember the last time I died to anything like this on my DH.

      All it takes is just hitting Smoke Screen when you get vortexed and running away for like 1 second. If you have Tactical Advantage, you should never even be within range to get vortexed.

      And if for some reason you screw up, you can Gloom through it. Across Perfectionist, Preparation, Night Stalker, and Vengeance, there’s not really a good reason to die to things that are predictable like elite abilities that are “cast.”

      I think I only die on my DH when I get cornered by a pack of naturally fast, fast affixed, extra-health, electrified mobs in a corner, and even then, only when I get a bad health globe drop (don’t get the 66% health drop from any of the mobs).

  25. I say gut the cheating death skills and also give the DH something more useful for defensive ability. They could do something as simple as vault by default or by rune choice leaving behind a fake DH, that has HP scaling off some stat, maybe even dex. It’s a cop out for Wyatt to try to shift the discussion to “we don’t like homogenizing classes” when the issue is that the DH lacks survivability comparable to other classes. You don’t need to give the DH a cheating death passive, it can get a few reworks for better defensive capabilities… But honestly I don’t think cheating death skill/passives should even be in the game. That was a bad call from the start and automatically puts X class above the rest for hardcore.

    • Huzzah, someone who agrees with me on the death cheat passives. At this point it’d be bad form to just remove them but I would support a nerf hard enough that they’d still be used by some HCers but not most (as the utopian ideals of balance means nothing is used by “most”). Something switching it from “This effect cannot occur twice in succession within 90 seconds” to, say, “This effect cannot occur twice within 25 minutes”.

      • IMO, the cheat death passives are bad because they’re just as boring as all the other passives.

        A WD could have a very flavorful, fun passive that would work something like:

        “When you die, if you have regenerated mana equal to your maximum life prior to death, you return to life with full life and no mana. Otherwise, you return to life with life equal to the total mana regenerated since your last death. You regenerate life per second equal to your mana regeneration, and do not regenerate life from other sources.”

        That’s a non-boring cheat death passive (though it might be too esoteric for use). Just, “lol back to life!” is abominable. At least you can use Spirit Vessel offensively, unlike Unstable Anomaly and Near-Death Experience.

  26. I play the DH almost exclusively.

    – They don’t need a “cheat death” ability.

    – They need the abilities that already exist to be affective at mitigating damage -sometimes they aren’t.

    – They need a re-balance of their abysmal resource pool. (Empowered shrine makes them near unstoppable so too much resources would be bad)

    – They need a re-tuning of the cost and damage of pretty much all their skills.

    – A lot of skills have cool downs for no reason and need to be reconsidered.

    Its possible to almost never die with the DH. Most deaths occur from taking overwhelming sustained damage and being unable to move away from that damage. This is usually caused by specific elite affix sets on specific monsters in specific areas.

    The most seemingly minor, and yet impact-full change that could solve many deaths is both Vault and Smoke Screen ignoring unit collision (and ignoring walls generated by units) over their duration. This small change could separate good DH players from great ones in terms of deaths.

    Hmmm, maybe its time to submit an article ;p

  27. QUOTE

    The answer is to fix the damnable Vortex and other cheap shots, not to make everyone a tank.
    
    I can agree with that, but there's still enemies that are faster  than you and have enough HP to not die before they reach you. So sure  you could make Vortex a gravity well instead of an instant auto grab but  you still need to make ranged combat function.
    
    
    Can't remember the last time I died to anything like this on my DH.
    
    All it takes is just hitting Smoke Screen when you get vortexed and running away for like 1 second. If you have Tactical Advantage, you should never even be within range to get vortexed.
    
    And if for some reason you screw up, you can Gloom through it. Across Perfectionist, Preparation, Night Stalker, and Vengeance, there's not really a good reason to die to things that are predictable like elite abilities that are "cast."
    
    I think I only die on my DH when I get cornered by a pack of naturally fast, fast affixed, extra-health, electrified mobs in a corner, and even then, only when I get a bad health globe drop (don't get the 66% health drop from any of the mobs).
    
    This sequence of events occurs the instant they get on screen with you. So do you kill everything off screen? Unlike D2 Amazons your projectiles literally cannot travel that far.
    
    That being said, remember how I said the counters were narrow such that you needed to go all old inferno four defensive skills and always the same skills? That's how many you just named. So every DH needs Prep, Gloom, SS, TA, Perfectionist, Nightstalker, Vengeance... (wait a sec, how the hell are you getting four passives?) And given you have 1 disc per second, 1 per crit proc, 2 per health globe, how long can you keep it up? Answer: Likely not long enough in higher MPs, in low MPs anything seems fine.
  28. “I can agree with that, but there’s still enemies that are faster than you and have enough HP to not die before they reach you.”

    Which is why CCs such slows, stuns, fears ect. are in the game. They just need to be more effective, especially the slows IMO (too many of them last way too short). Improve/un-nerf CCs, and remove cheap insta-hits and you’ve gone a long way to making ranged powerful again.

  29. I’m obviously not playing MP10 — MP4 & MP5 with my DH usually. I could go to MP6 but it’s my deeps, not my survivability, that’s too low to push it past MP5.

    Anyway, if I would get one-shot at MP8 or MP10 or something, fine. But in my experience on, say, MP5, I don’t get insta-gibbed as soon as the mobs are on screen. They usually run towards you before engaging — by then they’re eating a crapton of Hungering Arrows and Ball Lightnings, and it’s easy enough to use Vault+TA or SS and level geometry to avoid being vortexed into something nasty. Note that if you Vault during a vortex, the vortex will fail (same for any fast-travel skill), and vortex casts are easy enough to time because they occur on a very specific timer with a little pre-cast animation. (Also, this is unrelated, but Hungering Arrow does actually travel well off-screen.) I actually get vortexed about once every 15 packs with the vortex affix, and that’s generally because I’m too lazy to avoid it for that mob type and can burst it down.

    While I agree that the old inferno defensive skill dogma applies, it’s not QUITE as narrow as the exact same ones. There’s a tiny bit of flexibility:

    Four of: Lingering Fog, Tumble, Gloom, Battle Scars/Backup Plan, Boar Companion
    Three of: Tactical Advantage, Perfectionist, Vengeance, Night Stalker (note that I often take Archery and/or Steady Aim as well, so it’s really a selection from this group of 4 for 1-2 remaining passive slots).

    Obviously, more flexibility would be better — and CC would be nice to fill that void — but again, the dominant paradigm seems to be “lulz AoE damage everywhere” which goes directly against any CC/survivability mantra. So even if Blizzard added effective CC, the masses would just ignore it because CC doesn’t boost killing speed. (For the record, I trick out followers with CC-proc heavy items, and combined with my DH’s belt which gives a 4%ish chance to freeze, things generally don’t get close, which is awesome.)

  30. QUOTE

    So even if Blizzard added effective CC, the masses would just ignore it because CC doesn't boost killing speed. 

    If you’re dying often enough it does lower your killing speed. Also – I really really wish SC had a stronger death penalty. But that’s probably a separate discussion.

  31. People would just turn down the MP to where they didn’t die, though. I mean that’s basically what happens anyway, just replace “die” with “take more than one hit to kill every monster.”

    I agree with you in theory, Blizzard is just dealing with the annoying tendency of human nature to seek the path of least resistance, even in things that are supposed to be fun.

  32. QUOTE

    People would just turn down the MP to where they didn't die, though.

    You say that, yet nearly all DHs use Gloom, nearly all WDs use Spirit Walk, half of Wizs use Diamond Skin, and half of Monks use Serenity. (According to this: http://www.diabloprogress.com/top_skills/stat_heroscore_500). And that’s in Softcore. Clearly not dying has some value even in the “All AOE DPS All The Time” world of SC.

  33. QUOTE

    I completely disagree.  Blizzard's games weren't exceptional.  The secret to their success was the robust social tools they provided.  What is TRULY addicting, what kept bringing players back, were the friendships people forged while playing Blizzard games.  There were battle.net channels that effectively WAS the internet default destination for a good number of players.  
    
    They've built bnet 2.0 to where they can never happen again.  And that is the core problem.

    WUW? WUG? Cows11//////11!!

  34. QUOTE

    "I can agree with that, but there's still enemies that are faster  than you and have enough HP to not die before they reach you." 
    
    Which is why CCs such slows, stuns, fears ect. are in the game. They just need to be more effective, especially the slows IMO (too many of them last way too short). I'd love to see at some point where CCs are more popular than stuff like Diamond Skin or Serenity. Improve/un-nerf CCs and remove cheap insta-hits and you've gone a long way to making ranged truly viable and powerful again.

    Slows and immobilizes would help DHs a lot, but they don’t get that many of them. The main slow they get only drops at your feet, and due to the melee mechanics of this game that means you’re already getting hit. I don’t think they get a single viable immobilize. Plenty of knockback and fear, but those just get you votekicked because any non pure ranged party and many ranged parties are actively hindered by enemies moving in an unpredictable manner.

    Ivan: Usually elites wait a few seconds to start using their abilities. They charge at you, then start spamming nonsense everywhere, and assuming you finish the fight in 15-30 seconds (before you run out of defense) you can try the counter route. But if they do open fire right away (as I observed them doing very frequently lately) or it just takes too long… well they use their abilities more often than you can use yours.

    As for build diversity, “WW Barbs” have around 10 different variants. They’re still collectively described as the same build as having Bash or Overpower or whatever doesn’t really change how it plays that much. Same is true of many other builds. Old Inferno had a little room for adjustment as well.

    And since DH skills don’t work together, that’s the other reason they all take similar loadouts – you can just put an AoE skill in one slot and that’s all you can effectively use anyways.

  35. QUOTE

    Slows and immobilizes would help DHs a lot, but they don't get that many of them.

    I personally like Entangling Shot a lot. But yes, she needs more and better ones. Runes like Frost Arrow drive me nuts – slow one or two monsters down for one measly second?? WTF!

  36. QUOTE

    I personally like Entangling Shot a lot. But yes, she needs more and better ones. Runes like Frost Arrow drive me nuts - slow one or two monsters down for one measly second?? Or the Spider Companion that slows one monster for 2 seconds?? WTF is that garbage!

    Impale, 275% to one target! And think, this is after it was buffed!

    Another thing, elites are really fast, even without the fast affix. They move about twice as fast as normal enemies, so it’s trivial for them to be faster than your character.

Comments are closed.