On the Drawing Board #24: Shared Paragon Levels


Achieve 40 for a decent profile pic.

Achieve 40 for a decent profile pic.

Several times recently the devs have mentioned the possibility of implementing some form of shared DiabloWikiParagon (I dub thee “Sharagon”) level bonuses in the future of Diablo 3. I had a question about that (and about Paragon level customization) on the short list for my recent interview, but didn’t get to it. Happily, since another recent interview did ask that, and the coverage would have been redundant.

Travis Day: We’ve definitely talked about things like taking Paragon and decoupling it from your character specifically and making it something that is more account-over working. So that any time you invest in the game is rewarded and you don’t feel like we’re taking anything away from you if you want to try new characters or try out different play styles within the game. That’s something we’ve looked into a lot.

Also, maybe potentially adding some sort of customization within the paragon system. Sort of in the vein of a throwback at a Diablo II start location. We’ve looked at things like that. We definitely have plans to flesh it our more in time. We don’t need to design it from the ground up. What it does, it does well, and we just need to make it more encompassing.

So how would shared Paragon levels work? Would the MF/GF bonus share to all characters on your account? How about the stat bonuses you gain with Paragon Levels? And how would player behavior be changed by Paragon Level bonuses going account wide; less focus on playing your main character since your alts would get a big MF bonus as well? Click through for some more details and speculation, and add your own thoughts on how the system should work in comments.

First off, I want to nominate “Sharagon” (it works much better verbally than in print) for the official name for shared paragon level bonuses. Yes, I love neologisms and I delight in coining portmanteaux, (like “freespecs”), and when this term leapt into my head last night while we were discussing it on the podcast (two parter this week, coming soon) I was delighted. If anyone else thought of it first, I don’t care. Now it’s mine.

As for the actual bonuses, Blizzard hasn’t given us any details about how they might work, but we gave it some thought while recording the podcast, and a few things seem inevitable:

 

If Paragon Levels go to the account, the shared bonuses would only be MF/GF. Not stats.

This seems obvious once you think about it. A brand new Paragon level one character getting a big bonus to Magic Find and Gold Find is (arguably) okay, but that character suddenly getting 300 to their mainstat and 200 Vit would be hella janky. (Yes, janky.) You’ll share in the MF/GF bonuses, but have to earn stat bonuses by leveling up each character in turn.

 

Hardcore shared bonuses would remain if a character dies?

Remains to be seen, but it seems likely. I can’t imagine that Sharagon bonuses will be some weird “add up all your paragon levels and divide by the number of characters.” Instead there will be some sort of new account leveling system where you level up your individual characters for their Paragon levels (and the stat bonuses) while at the same time you level up your Account Paragon. (Accountagon?) That bonus will share to all the characters on your account, presumably whether they’re alive or not.

That makes little difference for Softcore, but for Hardcore it could be a huge difference. To take myself as the example, a couple of months ago my first Paragon HC character died at level 61. I had no other high level characters and with my main dead I was basically back to square one. I had a fair amount of saved up gear and gold, but my next character (also a Monk) had junky MF until Paragon 40ish, and not until he was back to 50ish did I get my MF maxed out again and start to see considerable riches in my item drops.

If there’d been some sort of Sharagon system in place, would my new Monk have inherited 150% MF/GF bonus as soon as he reached Paragon 1? Unknown, but if we do get a Sharagon system that grants each new level 60 with a huge MF/GF bonus, that will make a big difference, and a really big diff in Hardcore play.

Even for softcore though, sharing some/all of your MF bonuses should do great things to encourage playing of alts. No more would it seem mandatory to level one character to P60 or P70 in order to really cash in on Magic Find, and/or would playing an Alt with 14% MF feel like a waste of time. (At least that was our podcast conversation speculation…?)

 

Shared bonuses + individual bonuses?

This also came up during the podcast chat, when we tried to think how to make the shared bonuses less cheesy. Obviously opinions differ, but personally I think the whole Paragon system is at least a little bit cheesy, as it grants the full MF bonus to characters who make zero equipment sacrifices to achieve it. I loved MF in D2, and I loved that the system required you to make (some) sacrifices to achieve it.

On the other hand, I had really well-geared characters in D2 that I hardly ever played, since they were all in survival gear and had minimal Magic Find. They could kick ass, but it felt sort of pointless to just grind EXP when they never found any great gear.

Thus during the course of the podcast I talked myself into supporting a Sharagon system since it would do so much to enable alts and variety in character play.

That said, I hope the bonus isn’t just instant 300% MF/GF if you’ve got your account to Paragon 100. I like the idea of a Sharagon bonus to your account, but also for individual characters to earn bonuses. So my quick idea was 2% per level from Sharagon, and 2% from your character’s level up. Thus you could theoretically achieve 400% Magic Find if you had a maxed Sharagon account + 200% on your character (from Paragon and gear).

We’ve got no idea if Blizzard is thinking something similar, but it seems like a reasonable compromise. You get some Paragon bonus from your account (which would have to level up more slowly than each character, say maybe 2-5x more exp required for the account level up than each char?) but others must be earned by each individual character. That gives a bigger bonus for players who really seek it out, and avoids the cheese of a brand new Paragon 1 getting max MF/GF.

You guys may hold different opinions, of course. And that’s what the comments are for. Any pro/com on these ideas? Or got your own? Let’s get some dialogue going and flesh this out. I’d like to run a vote, but the options are too undefined at this point, so hopefully we can narrow them down a bit and get enough consensus to really start arguing?

Comments

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  1. The game definitely needs this. As is it does nothing but punish you if you want to play another character, and the whole one class main thing other classes never is MMO stuff that has to go. The stat bonuses can stay individual, but given you cannot get good drops without high mf making the mf part work for every character is required so that people can play more than one character and not waste their time in doing that.

    • I’d say that the game does NOT need this. If people want to level up their Monk, then they should level their monk. With this, people would obviously only play on their barbarians and any incentive to play with the other classes, that are not as effective, would be killed.

      • Way to go Blizzard, always thinking of innovative ways to dumb this game down even further. Have you guys even played D2 lately? Get off WoW and do some Baal runs you knuckleheads.

    • I’m with Hazani on this. I have a Wiz main and fledgling Barb and DH. Currently, in the game, if I am going to spend a couple of hours improving my Barb, the best way to do it is with the Auction House. Barring that, however, the next best way to improve my Barb is to play my WIZARD. That’s a problem that needs to be solved. There’s no way for me to fool myself into thinking that my time playing as my Barb is well spent, even if my primary goal is to improve my Barb.

  2. I think the account paragon rewards could still include the stat bonuses. Say you have account paragon level 50, so when playing barb you’d have 50*3 bonus strength, 50*2 bonus vitality etc, while when playing DH you’d have 50*3 bonus dexterity – I don’t think it would be a problem to design or implement. Bigger question is how to transfer existing character paragon levels to new account paragon level. What would be the new cap, what account paragon would players have based on their character paragons?

  3. What an abomination of an idea this Sharagon.

    Paragon levels give long-term incentives to play, because you get a sense of progress, when on a cold-streak dop-wise. I couldn’t give a rat’s ass about MF/GF bonuses (they can share those). Especially GF, that was a stupid idea, as if there wasn’t enough gold on the economy as it was. Well, I guess the Chinese needed a new highway after all..

    With retarded ideas as these, I am not so optimistic about the future of the game. Not after listening to some of the interviews and getting a feeling of cluelessness (is that a word?) from the devs..if I hear “the core fantasy..hero..hordes of monsters..awesome epic loot” once more I’m gonna puke, really. Especially since that is the main argument why we won’t probably get team arena deathmatch..ever. No problem, it wasn’t on the game box or anything..oh wait..

    • +1 Definitely agree paragon is supposed to be part of the long term incentive to grind but now they just want to take something that is “too hard” and dumb it down just like they dumb everything down. Is there something in the air in california that just causes retardation. They keep running with their idea of simplifying everything to levels of sub thought.

    • oh god… blizzard talking points for d3 like epic loot… holy shit they need to shut the fuck up. Not only is the loot fucking horrid, there really isn’t anything epic or awesome about d3, its an average game that fails to succeed d2 in almost every way. The way they say that shit is so awkward on top of it being plain ass wrong.

    • Agreed. The more features are put in, the more people will cry for more features that make things easier on themselves.

      If they want to add in account-based play rewards, fine. It should be different than Paragon levels.

  4. Shared paragon would help a lot on my interest to play again.

  5. Am I the only one who wishes they’d remove Paragon levels and just give us regular character leveling instead?

    • Not at all! I don’t like the idea of ‘sharagon’ because it halts character progression at 60 again in my mind. I’d much rather they extended the regular leveling cap instead of implementing paragon in the first place, but at least paragon functions more in the same vein as regular character progression. Sharing progression across characters I’m not actively playing gives me less incentive to play them (unless I get utterly bored with my main). Like others have said, if I want to progress my monk, I should have to play my monk.

  6. “[…] maybe potentially adding some sort of […]” – Travis Day

    Well, if concrete statements like these don’t inspire confidence, then what does?

  7. Meh.

    Take out Paragon altogether. Give everyone a base MF of +300% or whatever it is, or at least boost drop rates to that point. Drop rates suck and need to be better.

    Add in a set of perks based on some kind of achievement points-esque (but not necessarily tied to current achievements) system. Some parts of the system are character-based (and hence the perks are character-based), some parts are account-based (and hence the perks are account-based). Maybe integrate the perks with the banner system (different banner parts confer different perks, so there’s a visual representation of everything that you’re outfitting yourself with). That way you can give people a sense of “progression” and “reward” for doing things other than “kill most mobs in the most efficient way possible.” That should still be a way to get some “points” in the system, but not the ONLY way.

  8. “Paragon accountwide” and such things that get thrown around is just another drop on the hot stone. If the devs really want Diablo 3 fixed, they must rethink the whole Paragon system. Remember why this was implemented? Because people would have stopped playing in the thousands (well, they actually have) very shortly after release because there was virtually nothing to do at lv 60. Paragon was a band-aid fix, not a “awesome system” as called by the developers, and should be treated as such when trying to reinvent Diablo 3.

  9. Not a fan of the “sharagon” idea. There’s something to be said for having to earn your stripes in the various classes. (The ladder concept in D2 did this as well — no credit for what you accomplished last time around.)

    In hindsight, I like the paragon system as it is. Levels 1-60 are about learning the skills; P-lvls 1-100 are about getting items and working toward an endgame setup.

    New items and rune updates would be far higher on my list.

  10. QUOTE

    Not a fan of the "sharagon" idea. There's something to be said for having to earn your stripes in the various classes. (The ladder concept in D2 did this as well -- no credit for what you accomplished last time around.)

    The fact that paragon does give you something makes all the difference though.
    If paragon was just a ladder then it wouldn’t matter that it wasn’t shared.

  11. Paragon level was a stupid, badly planned and desperate band-aid fix in the first place, they should remove it and give some meaningful leveling to the game.

  12. Since when did Paragon levels become awesome? They blow. They offer no customization, no real progression by any substantive means, and they are an arbitrary band-aid fix for missing player progression.

    How about the devs work on actually making paragon levels substantive in some form for player progression rather than worry about spawning some crackhead ideas for making them more “accessible” to all characters.

    Can we please get some non artificial fixes for d3 already? Its been what… well over a year now and we have no pvp, no meaningful itemization changes, no meaningful progression, no open world, no meaningful randomization and dungeon delving, no meaningful skill customization, no meaningful gold/item sinks, no meaningful end game, etc. Come the fuck on already.

    • Exactly this.

      Cmon Blizz, most gamers these days are getting near their 30, we arent naive little teenagers who cant see the big picture, all the fixes on Diablo 3 so far are just stupid band-aid fixes, its clear as day, its not a matter of posing as an “Arm chair game developer” its just crystal clear that they have no idea on what to do with the game, all the big important things on this game are barebones, extremely underdeveloped, like… alpha build underdeveloped, like you said best:

      “we have no pvp, no meaningful itemization changes, no meaningful progression, no open world, no meaningful randomization and dungeon delving, no meaningful skill customization, no meaningful gold/item sinks, no meaningful end game”

      Isnt it pathetic when an statement like this isnt an overraction, instead its the painful truth about the game? Add insult to the injury: The whole development time they had to make this game. What the hell went wrong here?

      • “we have no pvp, no meaningful itemization changes, no meaningful progression, no open world, no meaningful randomization and dungeon delving, no meaningful skill customization, no meaningful gold/item sinks, no meaningful end game”

        I’ve been really thinking that they expected their exciting runes idea to take care of at least some of this stuff. And to some extend it should have. Sadly it didn’t work out that way.

  13. Also since this dev team is just being annoying I’m going to give an annoying shoutout to Jay “Fuck that loser” Wilson.

    Jay my man, you did good appointing Josh as the new project manager for d3. Nothing like another successor failing continually in the same path you once walked.

    Great job Jay. Great Job.

  14. They could actually add an additional layer of leveling (or you can call it reputation to distinguish it), one that is more similar to the guild leveling from Wow (because that is mainly what the proposed sharagon is).

    You could add rewards after every level that are nice to have or potentially game breaking. What if you reach level 5 Megaparagon by working towards it with all your characters and you unlock something that gives you 5% extra damage to all fire-based spells? Or give you the chance to select an option to change the mechanics altogether (like the big skill things in the PoE skill tree)? You could thing of certain bonuses if you play with multiple classes and tie in achievements.

    But anyway, let them fix items first.

  15. I was against ‘sharagon’ when it first came up but, I’ve come around as well. Specifically for the variety reasons, as the higher my main got, the less I felt like playing alts due to sacrificing the mf/gf. I guess in Hardcore, it would retain your highest achieved paragon, in case of deaths, rather than just using your current highest plvl for the sake of a static setting.

    So, like the article, I dont think the mf/gf bonus is that big of a deal for new lvl 1 characters, but the stat boost is. Perhaps they could just calculate the paragon bonus and apply it per level so the new character gets even stronger but on a more gradual basis. Take a p100, which is 300 main stat, divide by 60 and you get 5 bonus main stat per level. Not that bad. Dunno how that would work or tie in with the actual charcter-displayed plvl though.

    To increase the individual bonuses, there should be some sort of Paragon Perk system, where you can choose additional modification or passive skills or who knows what upon reaching lvl 60, based on your account-accumulated paragon levels. Every 5 or 10 levels gets you some perk.

    It would be nice if they were interesting like say ‘Arsonist: Dealing fire damage causes enemies to burn for x seconds; this effect can pass to other nearby monsters.’ But, they’d probably be more like, ‘Increase critical hit damage by 10%’ or worse ‘Increase maximum life by 1%’

  16. QUOTE

    I'd say that the game does NOT need this. If people want to level up their Monk, then they should level their monk. With this, people would obviously only play on their barbarians and any incentive to play with the other classes, that are not as effective, would be killed.

    No, it’d have the opposite effect. My WD is immensely more enjoyable than my Barb. Barb’s the only one that’s rewarding. Guess which one gets most of the playtime?

  17. I think it would be pretty easy to combine all the paragon levels on the account if you didn’t want to just use the largest one.

    For example, you could use this: If you have 3 characters, levels 57, 19, and 4, then you would have 100*(1-(1-57/100)*(1-19/100)*(1-4/100))=~67 levels account-wide. If you have even one plvl 100 character, then the total would be 100.

  18. This game will never reach it’s full potential, they should have listened to my ideas.

  19. I only play my higher paragon character because of the mf bonus. I vote for shareagon.

  20. QUOTE

    Way to go Blizzard, always thinking of innovative ways to dumb this game down even further. Have you guys even played D2 lately? Get off WoW and do some Baal runs you knuckleheads.

    Are you somehow implying Baal runs wasnt “dumped down” compared to Diablo 3 (or wow for that matter)?

    People are using ‘dumped down’ too much tbh. Getting Paragon isnt for the most part something difficult or complex (well, on HC it is maybe difficult to not get a disconnect before paragon lvl 100 I guess). Only time-comsuming.
    It is just a system, which in its current state, disincentivize you from playing multiple classes. Which is pretty bad in a game with multiple classes to play.

    Even if they made paragon account-wide, it would still take less time to lvl it with one class that you focus 100% on (and get best gear with), rather than spreading out your gear between 5 characters.

  21. Make it based on XP, rather than levels.

    So say you have a 50, a 20, and a 10.

    Level 10 requires 136.8 mil.
    Level 20 requires 417.6 mil.
    Level 50 requires 2,515 mil.

    So they have the stats of 50/20/10 characters, but all three have the mf/gf of a level 56 character (partway to 57) since that’s what the cumulative xp adds up as.

  22. Then MF and gold find need to be account-wide. Its that simple. Anything else discourages playing other characters or trying new things.

    It seems Flux likes to propose bad ideas to get people talking. ;p

  23. I’m not so keen on this. D3 is about improving your characters, not your account. I think it’s pretty important to be able to have some sort of justification for all your game systems, not just in terms of this makes life easier, but in terms of why it’s happening in the Diablo world. Paragon levels as currently implemented are a reflection of your character achieving new levels of heroism as they slay more monsters. But how do you explain a shared paragon level instead?

    Also, don’t underestimate the problem of what happens with the stat boosts in the current system. I don’t think a brand new level 60 should get all those +stats, but the old characters shouldn’t lose them either. But how else can you do it? The only solution I can think of is to keep the current paragon level set up with the exception being that you get the +magic and +gold find of your highest paragon level character. That would probably mean that hard core players lose their bonus when their highest level paragon character dies, so the incentive would become to semi retire your highest paragon character until another on overtakes them. Or maybe they can be nice and just remember the highest level you managed to achieve.

  24. I never grinded Paragon because of FAR too many examples in WoW where Blizzard set up long-term goals only to nerf them, dumb them down, or eliminate them at some point down the road.

    Never again will I get suckered into THAT! I see it was a good decision.

  25. I still say a VASTY superior version of char development would be to offer an epic quest at max level that is very hard to beat, only doable with epic gear. Just making an attempt to beat it will destroy all the items you wore during the attempt after you finish. If you win, you get reset to level 1 and get to pick from a set of skills, spells, abilities and stat bonuses you can’t get anywhere else. You can redo this on one char as many times as you like, leading to OP chars but it will take a LONG time to get there. Maybe years.

    Paragon sounds dull, boring, and tedious in comparison.

  26. I don’t really see the problem with the stats from Sharagon activating for all other characters.

    1) Hellfire rings. Nobody whines about those and a halfdecent one provides almost the same amount of stats when levelling an alt.
    2) Nobody gives a rat’s behind about 1-60 anyway, except for Ironborn players who I see as the only ones for whom Sharagon might pose an actual hindrance.
    3) The problem with the current system is fairly obvious.
    4) It’s a great incentive to remove GF/MF affixes and introduce some more interesting ones.

    • “Nobody gives a rat’s behind about 1-60 anyway,”

      That’s a big design flaw, imo. Diablo shouldn’t all be about level 60.

  27. A lot of negativity in this thread.

    The new hater buzz words seems to be “band aid fix” and “meaningless”, like in meaningless customization, meaningless progression etc.

    Well, the Paragon system was definitely a “band aid fix”, I agree, Blizzard agrees, everyone agrees. So why do you guys think that they introduced that “band aid fix”?

    Because YOU EFFING ASKED FOR IT! That’s why.

    “just give us a way to level past lvl 60, so that we have a long term goal to work against” BAAAM you got it!

    When it was introduced, most ppl were happy with the system and began to work towards plvl 100. But now when most ppl have at least 1 lvl 100 ppl are starting to hate on the system all of a sudden:

    “But, but… why did they make it so damn simple, and why didn’t they add more customization tied with the system so that it doesn’t feel so “meaningless”? I feel so mad!”

    Simply because they needed to get this system out quickly, hence “band aid fix”. As a matter of fact, Blizzard is currently working on improving the paragon system to make it mean more than a simple stat/MF boost, so they are actually doing just what you ask them for. Give them a break guys.

    Would you rather have gone all this time with nothing to do, and then get a more meaningful paragon system in a couple of months from now?

    Answer: No.

    So, what do they need to do know when most players have at least 1 plvl 100 char? Well, one thing they might do (aside from making the system more meaningful) is to share the paragon system to other character so that ppl don’t feel obligated to run their highest paragon char for effectiveness reasons.

    It’s just an idea they are thinking about, we don’t know if ,how and when they are planning to do it.

    Now go rage somewhere else.

  28. I see that Blizzard tries to counterbalance every flaw a new concept (intented to counterbalance a previous flaw) caused with a new new concept.
    Imho , this is going nowhere.
    Whith the same argument one should also ask to share levels.
    Is it the next step ?

    I fear that the game’s developpers has gone mad.

  29. Shareagon does not mean all characters get the same displayed paragon level. Only the bonus. Even shared, it is still a character achievement. Moreover, of the bonus increases when more characters are getting higher paragon level, it is an incentive to raise more characters. About the immensely difficult goal which grants cool stuff, they will not do it since it is for only a hundreds of players. It is not worth the work it requires.

  30. I dub the “failagon”, a system that should not have added in the first place, now being made more retarded.

  31. I am actually a big fan of the paragon system, as I’m a rather casual gamer and it gives me a sense of progress over the long term and an ability to set goals (current goal is to get my WD to P70 so I can get a sweet portrait). Having said that, I think the shargon concept is great. I love playing my WD, but I keep playing my WD because there is little incentive to play any other class. I mean, with him at paragon 53, why would I use a P03 wizard with only 90K dps? Sure, it’s a different experience, but it just feels way too inefficient
    The concept in my head is that you keep the 1-100 system for each class, but have a sharagon max level max of 500 (the sum of each individual class for SC/HC) or 100 * how ever many chars there are in the expansion. And maybe you still keep the stat bonuses and +MF/GF to each character, but maybe the sharagon level focuses on something less tangible, like maybe unlocking stuff for the enchantress or unlocking other crafting equipment.
    So in my mind, anything that gives me a goal to work towards and gives me a reason to play the game differently is a good thing. I really just enjoy the sense of progress with paragon levels as I have low expectations for finding good equipment when I play; I’m just enjoying the journey

  32. Paragon levels are the chance to add some customization to the toons.

    It an be implemented as stat allocation; skill customization, other visual customization (spell effects, etc.). Some might be even tempted to re-roll under such circumstances.

    From what the devs hinted this might happen in some form. Sharagon would make no sense for me under these circumstances.

  33. QUOTE

    Paragon levels are the chance to add some customization to the toons.
    
    It an be implemented as stat allocation; skill customization, other visual customization (spell effects, etc.). Some might be even tempted to re-roll under such circumstances. 
    
    From what the devs hinted this might happen in some form. Sharagon would make no sense for me under these circumstances.

    That is not what paragon is today though.
    If that happens, just separate “new paragon” from mf/gf bonus, and make mf/gf shared. Since they are the issue here.

  34. I would like to see some paragon experience sharing between paragon characters, so that way if you are mainly playing 1 character, your others are still getting a little experience. was thinking like 2% shared experience every 10 paragon levels. A level 30 paragon would share 6% (level 40 would share 8% and so on) with the other paragon characters on the account.

  35. QUOTE

    Not at all!  I don't like the idea of 'sharagon' because it halts character progression at 60 again in my mind.  I'd much rather they extended the regular leveling cap instead of implementing paragon in the first place, but at least paragon functions more in the same vein as regular character progression.  Sharing progression across characters I'm not actively playing gives me less incentive to play them (unless I get utterly bored with my main).  Like others have said, if I want to progress my monk, I should have to play my monk.
    
    Which is exactly what the current system doesn't do, as progressing any character typically involves progressing your barb, and not actually playing your other character. The difference is night and day, high level/mf + high mp = several inventories of stuff picked up, low level/mf + low mp = only several items picked up. And given that all but perhaps one of those loads of things is gonna get salvaged, the end result is no matter how much more entertaining the other classes are they're nowhere near as rewarding as whatever your first character was, and even when they hit 100, just keeping on them is more effective than playing a different class.
    • Isn’t this inevitable to the ultra-efficiency minded? One character will ALWAYS be a bit better at farming the others and therefore, if you’re only playing to farm, playing any other characters would be “pointless”. This shared idea maybe closes the gap a bit but whoever kills the fastest is still going to have the advantage at finding loot.

  36. Ok chill tO the trolls. This Patch has taken ages and the implementation is just speculated right now. Firstly if the stats mf gc were shared, unless you were p100 it would still be a disincentive because you are not progressing but playing and continuing at a current level. That’s fine but its not what they’re hinting at.

    What has been missed here is that they mentioned customization through this new system. Totally missed above.

    Ok, so how it may or should work:

    Leave plvl as is.

    Make there be skills available based on account progression. IE 10 plvls gets you 1 skill point that can’t be used to upgrade a stat account wide. +1 ms or ias etc (something non char specific)

    Plvls are earned faster at low plvls so this incentivizes playing secondaries. Allows. Customization and gives access to hard to get stats.

    Pls let me know what you think. (sorry written on phone)

    Background: HC only 5 lvl 60s casual player conrad#1952

  37. Stat bonuses etc wouldn’t really offer much customization if they were account wide tbh.
    The stats offered would have to be generic, and even if they weren’t, you would have to choose generic stats – since it had to be useful for everyone.
    Which would suck since one of the main goals in Itemization 2.0 should make sure there was no stats which were equally useful for everyone.

    The only aspect of Paragon which need to be account-wide is the MF/GF, because of the negative effect it has on playing multiple characters.

  38. QUOTE

    Isn't this inevitable to the ultra-efficiency minded? One character will ALWAYS be a bit better at farming then others and therefore, if you're only playing to farm, playing any other characters would be "pointless". This shared idea maybe closes the gap a bit but whoever kills the fastest is still going to have the advantage at finding loot.

    True.
    However, there is a very large difference between the gap of paragon lvl 100 vs lvl 0, and the difference between classes strenght. Especially because the power difference between classes currently, is something that should be fixed too.

    Min-maxers will keep playing whatever is 1% faster. But this is much more relevant for the normal players who don’t care if there is a 10% or even 20% difference in efficiency, but who might still care if there is a 200% difference.

    Closing the gap is a whole lot better than nothing.

  39. QUOTE=ShadoutMapes;8543413]True.
    However, there is a very large difference between the gap of paragon lvl 100 vs l
    Or we could remove the 60 level cap so MOAR ITEMS wasn’t the only way to increase your char’s power……..

    True.
    However, there is a very large difference between the gap of paragon lvl 100 vs lvl 0, and the difference between classes efficiency Especially because the power difference between classes currently, is something that should be fixed too.
    
    Min-maxers will keep playing whatever is 1% faster. But this is much more relevant for the normal players who don't care if there is a 10% or even 20% difference in efficiency, but who might still care if there is a 200% difference.
    
    Closing the gap is a whole lot better than nothing.
  40. Would you want unlimited lvls then? What would you get from each lvl?

  41. QUOTE

    Would you want unlimited lvls then? What would you get from each lvl?
    Seems like the non-MF/GF part of Paragon always delivers this.

    Not unlimited…my thoughts have been mlvls should go up by 4 each MP, so that’d be an extra 40 which puts us at a nice, even 100. What would you get from each lvl? Oh the usual suggestions, +stats points (assuming a magical alternate reality where there were more then 2 stats that mattered) and +skill/rune point I can manually allocate. That and having higher ilvl reqs so that your lvl 64 Wiz can’t use the lvl 76 helm your Barb finds just yet.

  42. I feel like anyone who is in favor of this idea just doesn’t appreciate the fact that you’re supposed to grind in this game. Maybe the grind is unbearable at times, but the idea is not to have everything handed to you as soon as you boot up the game. By this same metric, you might as well make it so that when you level one character to 60, the next time you create a character it’s already at 60, too.

    It just seems like no one wants to work hard anymore. I don’t mind grinding multiple characters to plvl100. It’s part of the challenge in a game that’s not very challenging anyway.

  43. Reaching plvl 100 is not a challenge… Just a matter of time (ok if you leech XP at MP10 and 8k dps, not to be left at front and killed is a challenge). Moreover, if only the bonus is shared, the “challenge” of reaching plvl 500 remains.

  44. QUOTE

    I feel like anyone who is in favor of this idea just doesn't appreciate the fact that you're supposed to grind in this game. Maybe the grind is unbearable at times, but the idea is not to have everything handed to you as soon as you boot up the game. By this same metric, you might as well make it so that when you level one character to 60, the next time you create a character it's already at 60, too.

    The grind isnt the issue. It’s being “forced” into grinding on one character instead of multiple characters. Someone playing 10000 hours on 5 chars shouldn’t be much worse off than someone playing 10000 hours on 1 character tbh (ignoring that it’s easier to gear one character than 5 of course)

  45. Shared paragon levels is an awful idea. The only incentive I have to play the game after leveling my characters is grinding paragon levels. Not finding better loot. Finding better gear is a result of my grinding p-levels.

    Then there is the issue of those who have leveled all five characters to plvl 100. What rewards do they get for spending so much time reaching this goal?

    Then there’s the self found console issue. Most console players will be self found due to no auction house, thus not having to grind every character to p100 to have max magic find for all characters means people will only max one character and have worse loot than if they maxed all five due to less grinding time.

  46. QUOTE

    Then there is the issue of those who have leveled all five characters to plvl 100.  What rewards do they get for spending so much time reaching this goal?

    A reason to see sunlight again?

  47. 5 times as cool icon? Achievements!? Feel of reaching their goals.
    Don’t know.

    Not like you couldn’t have individual counters for Plvls even if the bonuses where shared either. For those who like to keep seeing numbers rise (which I can understand the desire for, this is a Diablo game after all)
    Or, only have some bonuses shared (MF/GF), and others be individual (main stats, future customization).

  48. I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, publicly declared the wrong direction in which Blizzard was going at the moment they announce Paragon levels.

    I. The God declares mf/gf% given for free instead being a tradeoff system is wrong

    II. The God declares sharing this (unearned, in a manner of speaking) bonuses even more wrong

    III. The God declares that the Paragon system can be made worth having, if it was redesigned – one of the possibilities is that on every X levels player gets to choose one out of three rewards, which allow specialization of character – bonuses that are (not trifecta related and) unique for character class (a skill improvement) or general (a chance to stun on attack). Every L levels, a character could get another passive slot, to chose from either paragon-specific passives, or one of existing ones. This is an example of divine thought, not a divine word itself.

    IV. The God declares that if the Paragon system is redesigned to be meaningful, it cannot be shared. In this case, ‘meaningful’ is ‘directed to more customization’, since the game has enough of free-bonuses already.

  49. QUOTE

    III. The God declares that the Paragon system can be made worth having, if it was redesigned - one of the possibilities is that on every X levels player gets to choose one out of three rewards, which allow specialization of character - bonuses that are (not trifecta related and) unique for character class (a skill improvement) or general (a chance to stun on attack). Every L levels, a character could get another passive slot, to chose from either paragon-specific passives, or one of existing ones.

    The undivine yovargas thinks this is a cool idea with some good potential.

  50. I have only seen it mentioned in passing in this thread, but I think the point is being missed. The whole point of the shared Paragon levels is to decouple Paragon from the individual character so they can raise the level cap.

    The devs have already talked about scaling Legendaries as well so it kind of falls into place. It would make all of the existing gear obsolete. I would also think that MP scales monster level with character level in Inferno too, though we do not see it since there is only 1 character level in Inferno. Instant new content…

    Unfortunately Blizzard may hold this for the expansion.

  51. I agree that this “Sharagon” idea is simply meant to encourage players to play alternate characters.

    Putting Paragon levels aside for a second, this game does a terrible job of motivating people to start new characters. If you have a lvl 100 WD, why would you EVER start a new WD? You wouldn’t, there will be zero difference between the new playthrough and your previous one (Unless you play HC). Adding in the fact that you have 0 MF/GF on this new character makes the problem even worse.

    Sharagon won’t fix replayability, but it may help just a little bit.

    People argue that this game is about the “grind”, and ya it is. But its a grind where you pick up gold, never find anything for yourself and buy it all on the AH. D2LOD stuck around because we had the freedom to start 5 different barbs and have them all play differently! As in, each grind was unique to the previous due to stat and skill customization. I don’t even want to get into itemization… Sigh. I want this game to be good.

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