Blue on Magic Find in Parties and the WoW D3CE Pet


A forum poster brought up one of the oldest issues about DiabloWikiMagic Find in Diablo III; the issue of some MF-loaded character not pulling their weight in monster killing, kicking it in the back row during combat, and yet still scoring full item rewards thanks to the no-ninja drop system in Diablo III.

Past suggestions for this problem have revolved around item drops being triggered by some minimum damage dealt, or item rewards for the characters who deal the most damage, or “kick” options to let players boot non-performers from multiplayer games. Blizzard doesn’t like any of those solutions, since they’d be a lot of work to implement and don’t guarantee that they’d fix the problem anyway. What did Bashiok say about it, though?

It’s a recognized issue, just not one that has been attacked and a final design solution proposed/implemented.

We have short list of primary design values for Diablo III, and one of them is ‘Do no harm to co-op.’

Whatever solution we end up at it cannot compromise the desire to play with others, either through literal disadvantages, to social situations that cause frustrations through griefing, mistrust, people ‘pulling their own weight’, etc.

Some of that we simply cannot control. It’s an online game. You’re going to end up in some undesirable situations no matter how hard we try, but we can at least try to minimize them to being inconsequential by ensuring the game mechanics do not allow inherent misuse at a detriment to the co-op experience.

Bashiok’s words aren’t even an attempt at a solution, but that’s probably because there isn’t one. It’s unclear that any software can fix this issue, and since the devs (and most players) are fans of the DiabloWikiMagic Find property, they’re not simply going to remove MF. That wouldn’t necessarily help anyway, since you’d still have freeloaders and lame people in party games, though at least you wouldn’t feel they were getting an extra benefit by freeloading on your hard work.

Play with your friends, create a new game and don’t invite the lazy back row player, etc. Social engineering seems the fix to this possible problem, if it’s even a problem that needs fixing.


Elsewhere, a fan points out that the World of Warcraft special prize for DiabloWikiDiablo 3 Collector’s Edition buyers, the Fallen Shaman pet, is going live in the new WoW patch. Which seems odd with the D3CE still months (?) from release. Bashiok replied:

Diablo III was originally shooting for a 2011 release. No reason to hold the bonuses back too though if they’re done and ready.

But um… don’t you need a special code to enable the pet to your account? And you can only get that code inside your copy of the D3CE? I guess Bashiok’s right, though. If the pet is finished in the content, they might as well patch it in. Even if no one (other than maybe Blizzard employees or PTR dataminers) can enable the damn thing, yet.

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  1. I always thougth that simply increasing the difficulty exponentialy for each new player would do the trick. If each new player makes the game significantly difficult then everybody would have to pull their own weight, and if there is one guy hanging in the back row the in, for example, 4 players game, make the game difficult enough that 3 players have great difficulty in clearing the content, and for example 2 players would find it impossible to go through 4 man content. Ideally, overall, difficulty for when all four players play together wouldn´t be much higher from 1 man, but like I said, 1 or 2 people attemting to finish 4 man game = wipe. This would also solve the problem of players seperating from each other during large(er) mutliplayer game. It was ridiculus in D2 when you could 2 man players 8, that only led to people seperating and not playing or interacting with each other. With this proposed solution, single or two players would find it impossible to finish 4 man game, while if they all stick together, they would have easier time.

    • Given the variabilities of player talent, build strength, and the infinite equipment variety, balancing that precisely is probably impossible.

      Easy to imagine a mediocre player with a well equipped char vs. an expert player with a ton of MF gear being about equally-effective in PvM. So if Bliz balances to penalize the expert MFer, are they making the game impossible for non-experts?

      This further assumes that it won’t be possible to do super effective killing power while doing high MF; that was certainly possible in D2X, with many of the best items boasting MF as well as big damage/res/hps/etc.

  2. Can’t blizzard make each group member in the group share a portion of their mf to other group member if they are near, so it’s more fair, at least when they don’t contribute so much in killing, they’re still contribute mf to their group?

    • Maybe like this magic find of players = sum of all magic find/number of players. This would mean that the a char with +100% MF grouped with 3 others with 0% magic find = all 4 have +25% MF, should work IMO.
      Or they could tweak the numbers until they are happy.

  3. i dont like the new system, i suspect many players loaded with only +MF will just afk near party and acquire loot, without vote kick option this will be incredibly hard to manage the party, which will render public parties semi-useless, i hope not

    fortunately ill be playing HC so those players will die sooner or later but there will be always a debate if someone will run in MF gear and get better gear than a player who does the work, imo MF gear should work for everyone in the party so sometimes players will look for absurdly MF characters just to buff their own MF

    im sad that monsters dont hit harder on players2-4, so there is not that more risk involved

  4. I see how some can be concerned about this, but think about the reverse situation. I can easily see a group of friends bringing one ‘MF-tank’ to boost the chance of getting good loot, with the agreement that valuable loot are split between the players who need them. And any gold/money from sales are split between the participants.

    In any case, some sort of vote kick system really should get implemented. If anyone can join any public game without consequence if they behave like idiots, or exploit the game somehow, then the rest of the party should be able to kick such players. I don’t see how such a thing would hurt the coop game.

  5. The problem with vote kick and “in software/in game” police mechanics is that they will ultimately get abused as well.  The interweb is the lowest common denominator.  this is what happens when people can act relatively anonymous and you see their true motives and morality.  the only option that is available to blizz to use is the players themselves aka civics.  leave the game.  build a robust friends list and know who you are playing with.  it sounds lame, but if you play a public game and someone is “ok” ask to add them.  in a short period you will have a decent list and won’t be subject to the randomness of public games all of the time.

    having said that, not contributing is simply a matter of just being a jerk.  anyone, even a “weaker” MF char, can get in the mix and and take a swing on someone to “pitch in”.  personally i always liked to have a supporter type char.  in D2 my main char was a necro.  now maybe they honestly didnt “need” me, but i get so sick of the barbs and pallys ubertweaked and pissing and moaning that i wasnt helping and lagging the game with my 10 lvl29 skellies.  well, my amp damage and auras greatly increase your damage so i was helping.  most players would take another persons life for an item that greatly increases the damage you hand out.  well in game, i’m that item and i think support players like that take a lot of unnecessary crap.  that said, you can control your own game. make a private game.

  6. If I’m killing monsters and someone isnt doing much but they’re loaded with mf gear, then I’m a happy guy as long as I get the benefits of the mf aswell. Shared mf, problem solved.

  7. I swear.  This is such an non-issue.  The solution already exists in D2.  Use the MF of the player that gets the killing blow.  Whether the loot is free-for-all or specific to each player doesn’t really matter.  The monster dies, the loot drops, you get what you get.  And in D3, it’s already been said there is a proximity at which, if too far away, you won’t get anything.

    Can you still game the system, yes.  However, it will require teamwork just as it does in D2.  In addition, the person standing back doing nothing will at least have to do something at the appropriate time, and if successful, his/her actions will benefit the entire party not just him/her-self.

    • That’s pretty elegant, actually.

    • The problem with this solution is that it runs counter to the stated design goals of the game.  Blizzard is bending over backwards to make the game group friendly.  That is to say, they’re going to great lengths to encourage people to play in public games with players they don’t know, because they think the game plays better when there is more than one person.

      Thus, by focusing on the person who got the last hit, you run into the same reason everyone MF’s solo in D2:  They want to have their high MF applied to all the kills, not only a few of them.  In that way, this penalizes the MFer in a way that encourages them to MF in solo games. 

      While it’s an elegant solution in its simplicity, it goes to encourage solo play rather than encourage grouping.  And as  such, I don’t think it’s an appropriate solution when considering the design goals of D3.

    • Nah simplier to use Group MF where the whole group get assigned a magic find value based the group average MF, this will mean that the attempting MFing freeloader loses a lot of his/her MF but the rest of group gains some MF.

  8. To eliminate the issue, I propose several radical options:

    1) If you have separated from party for more than 1 screen, you are instantly killed
    2) If you have contributed less than 10 hits in 20 seconds, you are instantly killed
    3) If you only wear MF gear, you are instantly killed

    Tada, issue solved :mrgreen:

  9. There is a very easy way to balance MF in D3 parties that rewards the entire party for both dealing damage, and MF stacking.
    In the current system, ‘freeloaders’ who stack MF will contribute a minority of the damage, but reap the majority of the loot.
    This should be switched to a system where every player’s MF is set to the average of the entire party.  Now a ‘freeloader’ who isn’t pulling his weight in damage can still buff his teammates’ drop rates.  There is still an incentive to stack MF, but players who chose not to are not left out.  ‘Selfish’ stacking of MF is now a group benefit.

    • This seems like the ‘best’ solution to me.  Though it still encourages solo play, likely quite a bit at the high end, which is against some of the stated design goals of D3.  The reason being, at the high end players will likely have very good gear with decent to high MF on it.  These players can then probably MF more quickly and efficiently solo, so having it averaged between the group is something that would be detrimental to them because it would be roughly the same speed, but potentially significantly less loot.

      I think it’s a good situation because in normal situation where the player is making a larger sacrifice of damage / survivability, they will gain a lot by being with a party that can support them and kill faster than they can solo.  But as the gear improves, the risk increases. 

      Though that also may be handled by some sort of logarthmic curve that would cap the efficacy of MF. 

      • I am going to agree with Hermi here but with a slight tweak. A straight average might suck if you have good MF gear AND are doing your fair share of the work, but the rest of your party has little to no MF. Then you are basically stuck with 1/4th the MF that you are wearing. What if you have 100 MF and the rest of your party has a much smaller amount? Consider:

        (100+15+10+20)/4=36.25 MF per player.

        That doesn’t seem “fair” to me if I’ve got 100 MF but I’m only getting 36.25 AND I’m still killing things. I shouldn’t be punished because the people I’m playing with are stealing my MF.

        Instead I propose that you get the full 100% MF of whatever you’re wearing plus 50% of the average of the rest of the groups total. Consider:

        100+((15+10+20)/3)/2=
        107.5 MF for the player wearing 100.
        40.83 MF for the player wearing 20.
        36.66 MF for the player wearing 15.
        32.5 MF for the player wearing 10.

        This way nobody is getting less MF than they’re wearing. It would boost your party members, but would always do so relative to your MF level. It also works for all party sizes and could even be used for your follower.

        Blizzard has said before that you will be able to kill more mobs quicker with more people than you will on your own and I think this formula would encourage team play, without making it too OP if you really prefer to MF alone.

        I usually don’t ask what people think of my ideas but I’m rather proud of this one. Any comments about this formula? Good or bad?

        • This idea is awesome and you should post it in the thread on the official forums… Another idea is you could have everyone’s mf get set to an amount equal to the player’s with the highest mf of the group…

        • Cool yeah someone should send this to Blizzard, they can fiddle with the numbers to get it to there likeing.

  10. How do people use “only MF” gear? Do they not wear any rares in Diablo 3? Why do we assume they are doing less damage, couldn’t they be sacrificing defense/resists for this magic find? Wouldn’t not doing any damage be painfully boring, it’s not like they can afk in town and then go get the loot later. What about players who do little damage but don’t have any magic find at all (because they are under-geared or just terrible or whatever)?

    I think people should just stop worrying so much about what other players. If someone is distracting from your fun experience, then play with someone else.

  11. Magic Find has unintended consequences? Who knew?

  12. Ultimately the problem is about incentives.  This is a particular economic problem one might consider a moral hazard or alternatively, a negative externality.  While the comments about “high end” gear being the best of both worlds (both damage and MF) it’s clear that most people don’t always have this high end gear, and also it’s not easy to get this high end gear, and most importantly no one will start with high end gear.

    So what you end up with is a lot of people who see a blue peice of gear with high MF, and a legendary with no MF.  What do they choose?  The current system incentivizes the choice to the High MF / no other stats gear because the cost of using that gear (reduced damage and survivability) is spread across the whole party.  This is essentially a negative externality: When the cost of a party’s decision is spread to others who did not make the decision.  And that is why this is a bad system, and at it’s core, is a problem.

    To top it off, with the way respecs are you could expect to see people who are completely uninterested in doing damage.  They could offset the survivability loss by taking several defensive skills, and then simply “tag along” by joining real groups and going to them instantly.  Thus, reaping the full benefit of their MF, while suffering little to none of the downsides.  This is simply bad design because it takes the “cost” of MF away almost entirely. 

    Ultimately, grouping is an important consideration Blizz has on D3.  They’ve made it a multi player game, and to let it descend into something that is only played solo, or only played in tight groups of friends would undermine not only their credibility, but their image as people who can make games. 

    It’s a problem that needs to be fixed, and, in my opinion, the best way to solve it is to make MF a stat that doesn’t compete with damage or survivability stats.  That is, it would only compete with say: Move speed, +Exp, and +Gold find.  Thus, no one would be nerfing their own damage or survivability to make MF more lucrative. 

    Every other solution has some serious flaw wich discourages public grouping.  And while I know this doesn’t matter to some people, it’s pretty big from a game design standpoint. 

    • A++. Couldn’t have said it better myself. It seemed they were going that direction based on gems (look at the bonuses for the helm slot; XP, MF, GF).

    • Your solution sounds good in theory but it creates a new problem imo. If MF doesn’t compete with damage or survivability then it will always be the obvious choice, for me atleast. I like the solution but I don’t see any other stats MF can compete with, except damage or survivability, which would make it be a tough choice.
       
       

      • Gold find, XP (for twinking), rune find, gem find, and crafting find (materials and recipes) off the top of my head. Depending on what you are short of at any given moment, it would be beneficial to swap out MF for something else. This is all contingent on balancing these, of course, especially comparing MF and crafting materials and gold. If you use craft find, you should get more materials (especially rare/legendary materials) than breaking down what you find w/ MF. You should get more gold from gold find than if you were to vendor all of the junk you found w/ MF. At least, that’s what I’d do.

  13. I think averaging the MF in a group and applying it to everyone is interesting. Can’t really see any downsides to it that aren’t there in the current game.

  14. Get rid of MF entirely.

    It makes absolutely no sense to stack a stat that gimps your killing power in an ARPG. The real way to “stack MF” and get better items is to increase killing speed. Not some kind of awkward balance of gimping yourself. The goal of the game should be who can deal the most damage, or take out the most dangerous monsters, not who can gimp themselves the most and still kill.

    • MF in Diablo reminds me of RPGs where the secret, hardest boss in the game gives the best item in the game. If you can beat him you don’t need the item. Those who need the item can’t beat the secret boss. In Diablo if you can clear areas decked in MF you don’t need the items that drop. The game is pretty much over at that point.

      Of course that’s another issue, since in D2 items with MF tended to be good anyway. MF items should be crappy or even give negative attributes like some of the items in D1.

      There’s a bigger problem than how MF is implemented though. The only reason to get better items is for PvP, except Blizz has been explicit that PvP will be for the lulz only. There’s zero end game content, no goal to build towards (unlike, say, the D2 Median mod), so there’s no point in getting loot except to do more dmg to get more loot. After you beat the last boss there’s no real reason to continue playing except to do a different build. Just like D2.

      Unless people fall in love with the idea of getting items for the RMAH…

    • Its a stupid addon anyway:
      It makes no sence e.g. it makes the thing you killed some how have something on it that it didnt have
      Its a lot more fun actually usingitems that make your character better / give you improvements. e.g. the items people are actually looking forward to finding.
      And now its causing  all sorts of balance / freeloader issues

  15. I see another problem that may appear with the current loot system, besides MF loaded chars not pulling their weight in groups but reaping bigger rewards. The ultimate MF-group in D3 may end up consisting of something along the lines of three characters with full MF gear and one char with full damage gear doing most of the killing. I don’t think it’s good for the game if the best way to MF involves having some characters that are “walking MF-buffs”.

    I foresee alot of people trying to make money on the RMAH will get four accounts and find a way to put three MF-stacked chars with pickup scripts on follow. Those that aren’t clever enough to program advanced bots atleast :/

    I hope Blizzard can stop this kind of cheating but I doubt it, since no other game ever has.

  16. “If the pet is finished in the content, they might as well patch it in. Even if no one (other than maybe Blizzard employees or PTR dataminers) can enable the damn thing, yet.”

    Well, judging by the final content patch of the previous expansion (which was the only content patch for almost a whole year) 4.3 will most likely be around for many months and certainly Diablo 3 will release during it… so it makes sense to have the ce stuff in there for when the time comes… they did the same thing for the Sc2 CE stuff…

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