Blizzcon Interview Exclusive: Big Magic Find Nerfs Coming in Reaper of Souls


Here’s a second excerpt/tease from our exclusive Blizzcon 2013 interview with Jason Regier and Travis Day. The full interview and transcript will be posted later today. For my last question I asked about DiabloWikiMagic Find and the big changes it’s getting in Reaper of Souls and the new DiabloWikiParagon 2.0 system. Players have spent months wondering about the apparent removal of the current passive Paragon level bonuses to Magic Find and DiabloWikiGold Find, and the relatively minor role that Magic Find appears to play in the new Paragon Points system. (MF is in the Adventure Tab, and as of the Blizzcon demo, each paragon point would add 2% Magic Find, for a maximum bonus of +100% Magic Find.)

The devs replied to my question with a definitive and fairly surprising answer. There are big magic find nerfs coming in Reaper of Souls, and they don’t mean nerfs to the numbers, they mean nerfs to the value of the property on the whole.

Here’s the full quote.

Flux: Okay, Magic Find and Gold Find via Paragon Points. One of the things you guys said when you were first adding in the Paragon Levels was that you didn’t want Magic Find to be an essential property on equipment, so you were going to give it via passive bonuses. That philosophy appears to be completely gone in the new Paragon system. You can add Magic Find, but it’s in the tab competing with what… Movement Speed, Pickup Radius, and Resource regen, I think? And most of my chars would like all three of those more than Magic Find. So is Magic Find going to become more important on gear? Are you switching how it works on gear?

Travis Day: Actually, we’ve made some changes to how Magic Find works in the game. One of the biggest things we did with that… for example if I have 100% Magic Find from my gear, the cap today is 400%. Or is it 300%?

Flux: It’s 300% from gear and you can add more from…

Travis: *laughing* A year and a half working on the expansion, and I don’t even remember….

So basically Magic Find will provide less and less of a return the higher the quality of the item is. [He means the item being dropped and affected by your character’s Magic Find.]

So you actually only get 10% of your Magic Find applies to the legendary. So, since it isn’t that impactful a stat anymore, we didn’t feel like we needed all the restrictions we had on it. And we no longer needed to automatically just give it to everyone. Like we can’t have two people with like, five times different reward schedule, like on top of your character efficiency and the skills and how familiar you are with the game… we wanted to really diminish that gap. [The gap between the haves with amazing equipment, and the have-nots.]

As a result we’ve made some changes to Magic Find, and we took it out of Paragon since it’s no longer as mandatory as it used to be.

MF Diminishing Returns in D2.

MF Diminishing Returns in D2.

This is a huge nerf to the importance and value of Magic Find, but it’s not an entirely new approach to the modifier. Magic Find in D2X had diminishing returns where your character’s full value of MF applied to finding Blues, but progressively less and less of it worked for higher quality items. That decrease scaled with your total MF though, and even with 1000% MF you still got 200% of that applied to finding Uniques.

I didn’t argue the issue during the interview, but reading it now I disagree with this approach and think it’s the third (and perhaps final) way they’ve screwed up Magic Find in Diablo III. Click through for more debate on that, but first, the vote:


Your opinion on the planned reduction of Magic Find importance in RoS?

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The three (so far) stages of Magic Find in Diablo 3:

  1. MF was a mess at D3V’s launch since it was just another stat on items, appearing randomly on almost all item types with the same potential max value. The lack of specialized MF legendaries and sets (where you would have given up other valuable stats to gain big MF) compounded the failure.
  2. The DiabloWikiParagon system swung the system to the other extreme by giving every character maximum MF once they grinded their way to a high enough level. This retained value for MF, but made it impossible to raise high enough to really help with Legendary finding (+300%) without grinding to high levels, and then gave high level characters maximum MF without them making any effort or equipment sacrifice to obtain it, making the rich richer.
  3. The coming RoS change swings back in the other direction by nerfing the bonus of MF for Legendaries (which is all anyone really wants MF for) almost to nothing. MF is further reduced in importance by the general drop rate buffs of Loot 2.0, and it seems likely to be the least-important bonus in the Adventure Tab.

The ideal purpose of Magic Find seems quite simple to me, and I remain puzzled why it’s never yet been properly utilized in Diablo 3. As I see it, Magic Find is a bonus on items that players can choose if they want to improve their chances of finding great gear, at the cost of other affixes that would boost their killing speed and/or survival. It’s a way to customize your play experience and style, and is optional. It should provide better odds of finding better gear; not so good that you’re guaranteed, or that high MF feels mandatory to make a profit (that’s how D3V works today, for most players), but if you pursue it you should be rewarded for your efforts.

So the whole issue is balancing the reward. Adding MF gear should be something of a sacrifice of DPS/Toughness, and the challenge is to balance the gains players get from MF with the cost of enabling it. And the coolest thing is the possibility of items like DiabloWikiWealth or DiabloWikiChance Guards or DiabloWikiGoldwrap, where players can choose to use gear that’s intentionally much worse (for killing and survival) in order to raise their MF. That’s fun, that’s a trade off, and that’s exactly how the item game is supposed to work in Diablo. It’s boring if everyone just tries to get the best DPS/Toughness, and it’s boring if everyone finds the same quality of items, whether because MF does nothing, or because it does everything.

Boring was Magic Find phase one in D3V, Everything was phase two, and Nothing is coming in phase three. Will we ever see a phase four and Something? Not crossing my fingers…

Comments

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  1. If lots of legendaries drop regularly at a rewarding rate without MF in the expansion, then does it really matter?

    Whichever system they go with if it’s rewarding im happy.

    • MF does matter. Item affixes are essential to this game. Removing an affix which directly impacts a major portion of the game or making it so it has no impact on the game removes a large portion of the game mechanics. It removes another valuable item affix from the pool.

      It’s too bad that mostly nobody who actually enjoys these games plays anymore. The people who originally bought Diablo 3 and played Diablo 2 aren’t coming back to this mess. What a joke.

      Seriously go back to WoW and stay there. You shitters are ruining the internet.

      • I played D2X + LoD for 10 years. Oh snap they are devaluing one affix?! Why don’t you shit your pants about it? How do you know they aren’t putting in a dozen more desirable affixes to compensate?

        They also aren’t removing it. Also tell me where I said “MF doesn’t matter”. Posing a question doesn’t mean I’m stating me opinion. This is a site for you know…discussion and debate about D3.

        Also I havn’t touched the game in 6 months because it’s was an incredible let down for me but I don’t go swearing at everyone who was pleased with how it shipped cause I’m not an obnoxious prick. However I am looking forward to the xpac if that’s ok with you?

        Judging by how you’ve reacted you clearly were less than 8-10 years old at D2’s launch and probably were a toddler when D1 came out.

        Seriously.

        • Ofc I meant D2C + LoD. My pedant senses were tingling.

          • I’m responding to your comment dumbass, not Blizzard’s
            Removing MF is about as shit as it gets
            This is right up there with removing Life Steal
            Dumbing the game down for casuals
            Less useful affixes = easier game for baby

          • @FU

            The game is already dumbed down, BECAUSE OF Life Steal. The % life stolen/damage numbers allow everyone to completely avoid enemy monster abilities like molten, plagued, etc. Reducing the stat will only make the game harder.

          • i see you swallow wyatt’s line of reasoning whole

            oh boy, looks like we’re going back to life on hit again. so much better!

          • @FU – do you play D3? Life steal is terrible. One stat + huge dps is all you need for your sustain.

            The RoS changes make life sustain far more complex – the exact opposite of dumbing down.

          • life on hit, so complex.

            going back to how we started.

          • @fu
            Life on hit is a set value and a lot easier to balance than the percentage value of life steal.
            About 5 seconds of thinking should lead you to the same conclusion.

          • we’re going back to where we started

            here’s a crazy idea: why can’t they balance both life on hit and life steal?

          • @FU – no they are going LOH, LPSS, using health globe bonuses to improve LOH (tons of skills are going to take advantage of that stat), all sorts of changes are going in.

            Life steal is a bad mechanic. I’m genuinely surprised it has to be explained in such painful detail.

          • How about instead of removing life steal they balance it with the other mechanics instead?

            Life steal is a fucking great mechanic. Designers utter failure to balance it is called bad design.

          • dumb meets bitch

  2. To me, MF was always risk/reward. You can have a 400k wiz without mf and 200k wiz with max mf. Then you have to find a group to play in or perhaps solo at a lower difficulty.

    It gives you options and allows you to strive for balance and find ways to improve.

    We’ll see how it will actually work in RoS but from what I read, best legs will be hard to find. Not only they will drop 20x more legendaries at highest levels, but with enough RNG, it will be even harder to roll best mods.

  3. How is MF treated in the console version? I don’t see anyone complaining there..

    • That’s because they can easily dupe all the best gear. There is no closed b.net, it’s like Diablo 1

      The console version is a complete joke.

  4. Well this is certainly an interesting change. More than likely the community will bombard the official forums with complaints, and blizzard with revert the changes (they have been listening to us with most other topics after all).

    Personally I am not too phased by the change. In diablo 2 I only used a gull dagger on weapon switch and still managed to find plenty of uniques (cried wehn I found a 2os crown of ages).

    The thing I would encourage most players to recall before they jump the gun is the loot numbers shown to us in the gamescom presentation. Sure loot can be rare now but based on the numbers presented on a plvl 40 character, im confident we wont see too much of a difference after release. Especially with confirmed legendary drops on first time kills of bosses. And bounty rewards too.

    Im possibly the only person that isnt too bothered by this change but please tell me theres another player out there that feels the same!

  5. QUOTE

    The ideal purpose of Magic Find seems quite simple to me, and I remain puzzled why it's never yet been properly utilized in Diablo 3. As I see it, Magic Find is a bonus on items that players can choose if they want to improve their chances of finding great gear, at the cost of other affixes that would boost their killing speed and/or survival.

    oh, blizz knows the theory:Bashiok: I think the trick with magic find, or any sort of tertiary stat that doesn’t directly relate to player power, is to make sure that it’s an actual trade off. A lot of times and specifically for certain classes in Diablo II you could stack magic find and still be perfectly able to fight and kill. So what it really comes down to is properly weighting stats on items and ensuring that if you do want to stack something like magic find, that it’s clearly going to limit your power in downing enemies. Auto-stats to a degree also help out in this regard as you can’t effectively stack stats as easily to offset the loss of stats coming from items that might otherwise help keep you alive or kill at an acceptable pace. http://www.diablowiki.net/Magic_find

    It's boring if everyone just tries to get the best DPS/Toughness, and it's boring if everyone finds the same quality of items, whether because MF does nothing, or because it does everything.

    it may be boring, but it’s a fairly typical trend in modern games to psychologically manipulate reward centers to make everyone feel as if they made the “right choice” and feel like a winner. losers are forbidden in a blizz game.

  6. MF has been an intrinsic part of Diablo games since day 1. It’s a core gameplay function. MF=Diablo like new baby=breast milk!!
    This is just Devs telling us, yet again, how they want us to play their game.
    They have and are continually removing gameplay choices for builds, diversity etc. with these game designs.
    I really never worried much about the highest MF on my D2 chars. I tried to achieve a balance between gameplay and as high a MF bonus as I could.
    I usually ran 250-350 MF on my chars and I also found plenty of uniques.
    But, and the whole point is, I chose to play that way.
    The game had the MF bonus built into items and the coding for drops, to allow us to make the choices for OUR characters and our play style.
    If I wanted to run a sorc with 800 MF I could, and certainly had a better chance at a few legs with this character.
    So again it’s Blizzs game, their football so to speak, their rules.
    They are not doing any justice to this game design, past or future, from what I am seeing.
    I said this along time ago, these devs don’t have a clue how to code this game for diversity, longevity, itemization and player style choices.
    I hope for the best game someday. The future looks bleak from this team.

      • It didn’t even have Rare items or set items, there were no tiers so the same top end items were available in normal/nm/hell, there were about 5 valuable end game affixes, uniques are either BiS or trash, etc. And yet somehow it’s still really fun to play the item game.

        • My now-decomposing horse on this subject is simply because of trade-offs. You had very few item slots in D1, especially compared to D3. Your characters had capped stats and so in order for each class to do particular things (level up spells, wear plate armor, use the best swords), they needed particular gear to achieve it. Finding just the right item for one particular slot could cause a chain reaction of replacements/upgrades in all of your other slots. We saw that to some extent in D2, but hardly at all in D3, where no stats are capped so you always just want more of everything. Also in D3 each particular stat point is worth much much less than it was in D1.

          Also I don’t agree with BiS or trash for D1 uniques. Sure, a lot of them were trash, but there were others that could be made to work (Messerschmitt’s Reaver), and others that were situational (Gotterdammerung). But even in D1 they had uniques that would change your play style: Windforce and Naj’s Light Plate come to mind, with Thinking Cap sending you on an epic shrine quest.

      • That’s because everyone duped their gear in D1
        There was no balance whatsoever

    • “MF has been an intrinsic part of Diablo games since day 1” I loled harder than I should have at this.

  7. Been a while. I somewhat enjoy the fact that I can gear for killing efficiency and get MF as a result of Paragon. What I did with my monk is to gear normally and add a bit of MF when possible, but not going out of my way to to it, knowing that sooner or later Plevel would have me switch out the mf gear. Drop rate and MF should be handled together, as long as MF exists.

  8. I agree with Flux on the Risk/Reward , we need that in Diablo , I always enjoyed my Diablo 2 when I had a character with some Magic Find for normal runs and then finding some unique item , I knew that my gear had an effect and that I was rewarded for risking my hardcore character.

    We need more variety in gear , not less. they talked about wanting players to choose other stats than just pure dps and then they go and nerf MF , how is that encouraging diversity in gear ?

  9. Just remove the damn thing, add new and cooler secundary stats.
    Is much easier to adjust/balance dropa rate of the whole game when there isnt a way to buff it up with items.

  10. Oh I’m sure they will iterate on MF 2-3 more times before its over. They still have D3X2 in the pipe. Tons of radical changes there as well, not just to MF.

  11. Actually, I was afraid of finding too much items on RoS (I was D2 Single Player grinder, Pindle Hunter…).

    Now that I know that they killed MF, it “makes sense” – everyone would be rich to fast and MF would be mandatory otherwise… Except I don’t know if I like it.

    Actually, I would rather being able to trade secondary properties on items for MF for that extra value, D2 style, like Flux said.

    Imo, MF shouldn’t be strictly worse than pickup radius, i.e. (On the paragon tab, it’s worse than movement speed. Everything is worse than mov. speed on that tab.)

    I’ll wait and see before bashing. Still preordering RoS. And a pitchfork just in case…

  12. MF is scaling according to all the other changes to Loot, so it’s not really getting “nerfed” unless you’re just considering it as a number value.

    To put it more clearly; with Smart Drops, Primary/Secondary stats separated, tighter stat rolls, enchanting, and the whole “less drops but better items” change, there’s no need for MF to be that prevalent and/or for the character to have such large amounts of it.

    Makes a lot of sense to me, and I totally support the decision to move away from mandatory MF.

  13. MF is for uniques only, nobody cares about rares since in RoS the legendaries will be the most epic items.

    Mf was kinda of build on its own, or you could say it multiplied the absolute number of builds by 2. I I always found joy in finding : How would I play this build with max MF, is it still possible?

    Yey blizzard you just removed half of the builds from game haha and not those 4587845995 builds you were talking about, real ones. MF ones.

    But now I trully understand you blizzard. Streamline it, streamline more.

    No trading , no mf, grind, get nice items, grind more, be like god, you are the winner, you are content, buy more of ours game, you are the ONE. Neo. Good feeling=money for bobby.

    No requirements to become a god, except everybody is too. lulz.

    • man reading your comments here and from your auction house removal post makes me kinda sad for you – you must really have some serious lack of attention issues If you have such a great need to set yourself apart playing the auction house.

      How bummed out are you that these filthy casual plebs might achieve in 50 hours which would have taken you previously 500 hours. when will these candy crush addicted pokemon trainer learn that the _only_ true expression of skill, dedication, sophistication is your ability to run your MF optimized WW barbarian for 8 consecutive hours on the same route like a numbed zombie devoid of any emotion.

      I much rather grind another 500 Hours to upgrade the crit of my quadfecta ring from 5.0 to 5.5% (on the auction house of course) – that is the true expression of character customization and my individuality.

      sarcasm aside. the core itemization of the game is still very disappointing. however I am intrigued by many Legendaries (new ones and revamped old ones) and the possibilities they might open up.

      If this game nets me 20+ hours of satisfying monster slaying / Item – hunting which do not feel like chore i’ll be content.

      The Core game of Diablo 3 attempted to be what it is not by stretching content very, very thin. I pretty much stopped playing the game whenever the novelty of a given class , patch or feature wore off – because at it’s core the game has always been thin on purpose.

      kinda like printing 1200 page novel in fontsize 48.
      why not just advertise and sell your 200 page novel for what it is and be done with it. i can tolerate and appreciate it for what it is.

      but don’t force it to be something that it is clearly not.

      Diablo 2 wasn’t a great game because you HAD TO play for 1000 hours achieve something. Diablo 2 was great game because you enjoyed doing what you are doing and didn’t mind or even notice that it strung you along 1000 hours.

      • Yo if I have lack of attention issues then you are

        1:Cheap to please by 20hrs gameplay.
        2:Psychiatrist
        3:Fanboy

        Next time move along. Cause you clearly dont get the idea of great games – as much as I can simplify it to you: It meansto have epic thing, which is easy to comprehend in basics , easy to learn wih good learning curve,but very hard to master. Thats how you make cult around game and it will suck casuals into it anyway cause of all their cool friends will be like: Oh have you played this game yet?

        But blizzard made buckablo 3: the farmville.

        • i agree that diablo 3 was largely a disappointment when compared the memories of d2 but neither the auction house nor the fucking terrible itemization and loot acquisition rate were any of its redeeming factors. and from what has already been established in d3 – neither the auction house removal nor more easily acquired loot will hamper the game experience.

          aren’t you one of those guys who throws argument “don’t use the auction house if you don’t like it”-argument around ?
          here is a fun game design rule you can impose upon yourself that will keep you engaged in the game for 1000 of hours. only pick up every 10th legendary / rare. that way you wont be a demigod face roller within hours and you can stop bitching about how the game is made into farmville.

          (even though the removal of the RMAH indicates 180° turn as far as unnecessary monetization is concerned – which you conveniently ignored)

          and if i get like 20 hours of game play out of it , it will be worth 40 bucks and just move fucking on. If i get more out ? great even better.

          If you call 20 hours of enjoyable time for 40 bucks an offer that only cheap to please fanboy would take up. than you are simply delusional. why would blizzard purposefully design their game for masochists like you who enjoy 1000 of hours of mindless grind and playing your ressources out against others (AH).

          If the loot acquisition rate and average quality would stay in ROS as it is now and if the Auctionhouse would still be in the game as it is now. than ROS would doubtlessly a worse game which would produce less hours played overall.

          people don’t enjoy being strung along for the sake of “being able to play longer” If you feel like the game purposefully tries to waste your time you just quit playing the game whether your exhausted the potential “content” or not. and thats exactly what happened with Diablo 3.

  14. MF doesn’t really fit Blizzard’s vision for the game anyway.

    Who’s got time to min/max anything or figure out acceptable MF/stat tradeoffs when you could just be out there warping around adventure mode waypoints killing stuff?

    Basically with all the RoS news from Blizzcon I’m fully convinced that Blizzard has just embraced the “action” part of ARPG and is leaving the “ARPG” part out of it.

    Also, I noticed that no one here has mentioned it, but Blizzard indicated at Blizzcon that the Crusader will not be receiving the 30% damage reduction.

    • Hopefully that means the 30% damage penalty is leaving the game along with the 30% damage reduction bonus. The devs talk about not having penalties in the game and then they leave this in…

      All characters should be taking damage from monsters based on game-play and not having a penalty applied to you just because you choose a certain class.

      I wish this could have been asked in the interview but I missed the submit question period.

  15. Honestly, I think that MF should just get removed. Right now, it doesn’t really add anything important to the feeling of gameplay, and I would argue that it never did in D2 either (can’t comment for D1, since i haven’t played it).

    To explain, my core feeling is that as Flux said, the purpose of MF is that it should be a risky trade-off: less power and survivability in exchange for the chance of finding more powerful loot to compensate for it. However, I feel that MF has never really done this. In D2, several classes could get by reasonably well with mediocre gear; specifically, the Sorceress was best at it, but a summoning Necromancer was also quite gear-independent. In addition, a lot of the best uniques had MF on them, so for more gear-dependent classes, oftentimes the better gear you got, the more MF you had, eliminating the risky choice.

    In D3, before Paragon Levels, MF was more random, but the same kind of problem still emerged. Since all classes are gear-dependent in D3, most people simply got a stack of MF gear independent from their ‘killing stuff’ gear and swapped into the MF gear when packs were near death, the better to get the benefit of the MF. It was to combat this play style that Blizzard implemented the Paragon system giving everyone free MF up to a cap. However, in both systems, MF still failed to be a risky choice: pre-Paragon MF, people just kept two sets of gear, so MFing was tedious, but not really risky or a choice. Post-Paragon MF, gathering a lot of MF gear was mostly irrelevant, as leveling up faster would provide much the same benefit.

    My point is, in none of the above examples does MF succeed in being a risky choice between better power/toughness and better drops; at ‘best,’ it is a tedious gear switch that changes nothing significant, and at ‘worst,’ it’s just free extra drops for classes that are less gear dependent than others. As far as I’m concerned, the player base has confirmed, through its actions, that MF as a stat is inferior to in-game power and survivability, and that they are only really interested in using MF when it does not provide a significant drop in power and toughness. Flux himself admitted in the quoted interview that when given a choice between three Paragon bonuses impacting in-game play, and extra MF, he would usually take any of them before the MF. As a result, I feel that MF has largely failed in what it was meant to do.

    I agree with the idea of MF, that there should be stats that provide a risky-but-powerful alternative to flat DPS/toughness increases, but I feel that MF provides a very poor means to that end. Quite simply, MF doesn’t do enough to justify itself as a risky-but-worth-it stat; people have always taken MF only when they could circumvent the inherent risk and just reap the rewards.

    As a result of this, I would be more interested in seeing MF-like stats that dynamically change the game, making extreme and more unusual play styles more interesting. For example, what if there was a static, always-on in-game ability that made it so that the lower your life percentage was, the higher of a chance you had of getting rarer items? Currently, there are pop-ups in game telling you when you survives a fight with especially low health (my personal record has been a very lucky .4% max health survival) — what if this was tied in to your drops? It would be very interesting to me to see a build that intentionally kept itself low on life, especially since most people consider lifesteal (and, when RoS debuts, most likely LoH with replace LS) to be a core element in their character’s defenses. A character build to get the low-life farming benefits would have to go mostly/entirely without LoH or LS, making proper defensive play much more interesting – and rewarding.

    Alternatively, completely out of the idea of Mf-style loot increasing, there could be affixes on gear rewarding play with full or low resources. The bonuses would be similar, but with the numbers intentionally staggered between the classes; for example, for a class like the Wizard with a regenerating resource, it would be comparatively easier to stack up ‘+stat on max resource’ than ‘+stat on low resource,’ so the numbers for max resource would be artificially lower on Wizard-specific gear. Regardless, however, it would give each class reasons to play in a certain way not usually played by an optimized player. Again with the Wizard example, a ‘+stat on max resource’ character would play mostly with signature spells and free, CD-based skills, to get the most benefit. Similarly, a ‘+stat on low resource’ build would want to focus on AP-based spammable skills and channeling skills, with few (if any) free spells.

    I feel that dynamic, game-changing systems like the ones I have outlined above would do much more for creating a unique, challenging and risky-but-worth-it atmosphere in the game than another rehash of MF as a gear affix or a level up bonus, which has been tried repeatedly, and failed repeatedly.

  16. It seems most people disagree with you Flux. Most people want magic find removed. Not everyone enjoys it and I certainly don’t. It’s not fun to feel like you need to sacrifice DPS/toughness to be the most efficient you can be. I want to be as [email protected] as I can be and nothing else. I just want to worry about being more powerful and stacking damage and mitigation. Not everyone loves to time their runs to see how many legendaries they earn per hour on an MF set vs a normal set etc. Just wanna stack higher DPS/toughness knowing that will make you more efficient.

    You say you want it to be rewarding but not feel mandatory. Guess what if it is even slightly more rewarding to stack MF over just pure DPS toughness then it will feel mandatory.

    Also another comment you made about paragon system letting people have max MF without making any effort for it? Well I believe levelling to max level is making an effort.

    Not disrespect here, just that you wrote your article in a very negative and matter of fact way. I’m just saying there is a different perspective. You like to calculate and carefully balance MF vs kill speed. Many don’t want to worry about that in an ARPG. Just wanna be powerful.

    • Yeah, back in D2, with MF, most of the time, the bad ass gear I’d end up finding, I found myself thinking: “Well this item is awesome, but I want to keep finding items, so I’ll keep the MF gear… wait, why was I hunting for loot again?”

      Nerfing it into uselessness seems odd. Just remove it if that’s what you want to do.

      • Its more about clearing areas now then stacking MF. I welcome the change. I played this way my second 5 years in D2LOD.

        Diablo seems to play better this way.

    • There’s always been a substantial minority, maybe even a majority, who don’t like MF. Even back in D2, where it was enabled better than in D3 (though still far from perfectly).

      I had another question in the interview about the function and theory of hardcaps for affixes in RoS (those are out and not coming back) and in his reply Travis explained that they’re trying to reduce the thinking required of min/maxing. That they want players to just find a great item and put it on and go, and not have to evaluate their overall stats, not have to check a website (as you do in WoW) to see how the item needs to be reforged exactly for your char, and not need to replace other items since this one takes them to their ChC or IAS max, etc. The devs think that most players want that immediate “this is awesome now I can kill faster” feeling, without having to consider their whole gear setup as a sort of jigsaw puzzle of varying affixes and properties that each need to be not too high or not too low. He’s probably correct, and the fans who say, “I don’t want to have to ever trade off damage for anything like MF” seem to prove his point.

      I love the jigsaw puzzle of putting together good gear, and that was a lot of the fun of the item game in D2 with breakpoints and diminishing returns. e.g. you needed some amount of +str to equip your heavy armor, you needed at least X amount of resistance but more was wasted, you needed at least 40% FHR but more was wasted, you wanted X amount of faster block, at least one item of Open Wounds or Poison to stop monster regen, etc. That’s what made the item game fun for me, and I liked to think and plan and dress up my dollies with the right mixture of gear.

      That approach is almost entirely gone and simplified in D3, and the nerfing of MF seems to exemplify their approach to that “no thought/evaluation required to select gear” attitude. That so many fans approve of it saddens me.

      • “The devs think that most players want that immediate “this is awesome now I can kill faster” feeling, without having to consider their whole gear setup as a sort of jigsaw puzzle of varying affixes and properties that each need to be not too high or not too low.”

        This is wacky. Because I think this is the very thing that makes these games interesting. Blarhg barf.

      • Flux, I love the gear puzzle aspect of diablo as well, but mf never seemed like a tangible stat like the others. It feels more satisfying to see stuff die faster or survive more easily than to see more yellow stuff on the ground.

        You can argue that removing mf simplifies the gear system. Obviously removing an affix does that by definition. But to me, a hero that kills more efficiently is more interesting than one that picks through corpses more efficiently. And with everything going boa, removing or greatly mitigating mf seems necessary, else you end up enchanting all slots for mf instead of other potentially game changing affixes.

        That all said, I am going to wait and see what the new loot is before diving into ros. If they don’t deliver on items that change gameplay, I see no reason to buy and keep playing. I’ve played all the characters in all builds already, so no point in paying money to extend that experience just with bigger numbers.

      • Fans aren’t approving of the simplification, they’re approving of the removal of a problem affix. MF has been a problem since it existed. It creates a constant conflict of interest with gearing choices. The only ‘MF’ should be faster farming speeds.

        MF is like a drug. If you feel you want to use it to find gear, then you’ll feel compelled to keep using it after you have found great gear because you’ll feel like you’re losing a lot by not using the MF gear during farming. As a result, it takes you away from the whole point of farming for gear and boxes you into a specific gear choices.

        If MF didn’t exist, no one would care. The farmers looking for great gear would just focus their gear choices on farming faster while also being free to explore gear that has no MF without feeling they’re hampering their future farming efforts. That is a good thing.

      • The fans do not -approve- per se with the simplification.
        They have just been taught for years, that fine-tuning the last 5% of the relative power of their character IS hardcore theorycrafting, and that tuning ~50% of their relative power is a -illusion of choice- .
        So they actually feel more clever the less effect their choices have…

  17. TRASH MF COMPLETELY if you guys are just going to ruin the stat anyway. HOLY SHIT IS IT THAT HARD? geez. Just keep MF in paragon and cap it at 100 perc, and leave it at that. good god….

    I like MF, but I dont want a shitty MF stat in the game rolling as an affix if its nerfed to the fucking ground and nearly pointless. I would rather its just scrapped entirely.

  18. “As I see it, Magic Find is a bonus on items that players can choose if they want to improve their chances of finding great gear, at the cost of other affixes that would boost their killing speed and/or survival.”

    With the primary/secondary system, it becomes that much easier to just put MF in every slot while retaining the stats you really want.

    Don’t really enjoy MF myself.

    • True with the primary/secondary stats on items… but with all legendaries going to be BoA, and legs looking like they’ll be BiS options for most characters, I think the trade off would work. with an AH and no binding it would not, since everyone would just buy the best legs with MF also. But having to find them yourself?

  19. Blizzard really messed up mf in d3. It was different in d2 when you had some quick and viable builds specializing in it.

    However, in d3 you are being forced to get 5 buffs and playing with 3 others to get the maximum benefits for a bare minimum result, and that makes mf more of a nuisance than fun and meaningful, so I also think mf should be removed from the game entirely.

  20. I voted that they should remove it completely, but I actually feel they should \fix it\. By this I mean that they should (1) relegate it to one modifier on one or two item slots; (2) make choosing MF on those slots’ modifiers a huge trade off with other powerful or unique modifiers; and (3) cap it at, 10%.

    The problem with MF in Diablo 3 is that long ago the devs decided that the only reward system in the game would be items. Basic levelling meant nothing, paragon levelling only meant MF and GF, and there was no allocation of anything, which arguably may or may not have been meaningless in function, but it still felt good to design your character then go about building it. By having the ability to have exorbitant MF and GF percentages (and an AH) they had to balance the drop system around the upper end of that spectrum. That meant that people who were just wanting to play casually or even more regularly, but for shorter durations with each session, were stuck in this huge rewardless purgatory, where Hell difficulty was too high for you to trade out survivability stats for MF, but your lack of MF meant you found nothing. Literally, nothing. You go for 8+ hours without finding anything useful or tradeable.

    Fast forward to this expansion and some of the previous patches and they are revamping the drop rate for actually playing the game like most people can, which is to say that even without MF useable drops will still be frequent enough that you feel like you’re getting a reward and levelling will be reintroduced as a reward system since it will affect how you build and play your character. This is supposed to be an enjoyable process, i.e., \playing\ the game.

    People who are solely farming items ought to be able to get the stellar items just by the sheer time they put in, and Blizzard, therefore, has no need to distort drop rates in their favor any more than a minor percentage and at a great tradeoff.

    That said, I think they are messing things up by binding everything to your account. Even if I believe that drop rates should not undergo distortion to favor them, people who enjoy farming and trading shouldn’t be forgotten. At least allow them to trade unidentified legendaries and rares. That way if they find a legendary wand while playing their beloved Barb and they have no interest in making a WD, they can trade it away for something certainly useful like mats or something potentially useful like another unidentified legendary for their char.

  21. “[…] think it’s the third (and perhaps final) way they’ve screwed up Magic Find in Diablo III […]”

    Sounds like challenge, better leave it.
    With MF getting the idendification treatment (still there for legacy reasons but not serving much of a purpose), I guess the concept is more in line now with the watered down rune and crafting systems. Finally some consistence. 🙂

  22. Wait, they took it out of Paragon?
    So we can’t spend points on it and have to have MF on our Items again?

    • dun worry, you need no ugly and bad mf items (like everybody is trying to put it here) cause they will affect only blues(LOL) rares (lol) and legendaries only by 10% so even if you amax MF it would be propably better for you just get more dps and kill content faster.

  23. Mf is a boring stat. It also is redundant with the difficulty settings. You could load up on mf in d2 at the expens of killing a bit slower. In d3, you increase mp level to make the game harder, but mf and drops per monster go up.

    I think mf should be removed from gear and only come into play by increasing mp level to keep rewards balanced with the risks. Pickup radius, move speed, life regen, plus globes are all more interesting stats.

    • +1

      This is pretty much my view too.

      Never liked MF as a stat. At least not the way it worked in d2, and in d3 it is redundant as you mentioned.

      in d3, you can either gear your character to be efficient at low MP/difficulty levels and kill faster, or gear up your character for higher MP to gain more MF but kill slower. That’s perfect really. Anyone can decide what is most fun for them, and relatively speaking, both characters would be considered equally powerful.

      If we look at d2, the two stats that measured how efficient you would farm items was.

      1. Cast speed.
      2. Magic find.

      Any other stat made marginal to no difference because of 3 things.

      1. Teleport
      2. Static field
      3. Gear had low impact on character dmg.

      So, in conclusion, if you where interested in finding items, MF was the stat to go for. There was really no significant trade of. Terrible stat.

      But that’s just me.

    • This, this, this.
      Monster Power did what Magic Find was supposed to do, only much, much, MUCH better. Tougher monsters for better rewards. So simple, so elegant, no gear swap goofiness. Once the Monster Power/difficulty system came out, Magic Find’s days were numbered. Too bad that number isn’t 0, and it’s already dead now, today.

  24. I still have a hard time caring about MF mechanics. They always tend to suck tbh.
    Ill be relatively happy as long as they arent annoying, like they were at release, with the huge incentive to gear-switch.

  25. QUOTE

    That approach is almost entirely gone and simplified in D3, and the nerfing of MF seems to exemplify their approach to that "no thought/evaluation required to select gear" attitude. That so many fans approve of it saddens me.

    Just because people dont like MF, it hardly means they don’t like more thought in the gear selection process.

    Itemization was certainly better in D2. I mean, it is hardly possible to make it worse than what is is in D3.
    What you quote from Travis is amazingly sad.

    Trading between MF and dmg just doesn’t seem every interesting tbh. It isn’t because it is complex or similar.
    I would much rather choose between different types of dmg, defense and utility stats, which all have their individual strengths and weaknesses (rather than this current trifecta disaster of universally useful stats).

    It doesnt exactly have to be either or of course, I simply think that in all the different interesting stats you could have to choose between in this game, MF would be really really low on the list for me. Luck made into a stat pretty much. Kinda boring.

  26. I love the concept of theorycrafting to get the most out of your gear. Item forging in WoW though got to point though there wasn’t any theorycrafting anymore. You know what you need for min/max, so you do the calculation, reforge all your gear to get the result. Do that everytime you got a new piece of gear. That’s a PITA in WoW. And I agree with Blizz there.

    I disagree with Travis in that sense toward D3 however. Because that’s a feature, imo, where its more fun to min/max(In the sense of personal balance of MF/Power). You don’t need to, in order to have fun, because there’s no raiding where you have put out certain numbers, or pvp where winning is on the line. But the hobbyists/hardcore can tinker for that extra small percentage on thier gameplay.

    So in that regard, I actually liked the concept of MF in D3V when it comes to rares. It made identifying rares interesting (before the shittty legendary revamp). How can I shuffle my gear around to get this pretty good piece in with max MF? I enjoy that kind of puzzle. That’s why I immensely like the randomness of rares in D3 over legendarys that had exclusive standard affixes (run speed on lacuni’s for example).

    Having said that, being able to change your gear mid-combat defeats the purpose of that puzzle shuffling of gear to find your balance. So as long as that is allowed, just get rid of MF.

  27. I agree that MF is a bit redundant with MP since higher damage +sustainability + higher MP = higher MF. However, for less efficient build, MF can be more interesting than dmg+sust:
    If your build is efficient, you can, for instance, do MP x with 30*x kdps. In each MP, you gain 10% MF so for efficient build 10% MF is equivalent to +30kdps and if 30 kdps is easier to get than 10% MF, MF has no use. However, if your build is fun be not efficient and you can do MP x with 60*x dps. Then 10% MF is equivalent to 60kDPS and in this case, MF can be the best road. So balanced properly between efficient and fun, MF has a role to play, without diminishing return since DPS has no diminishing return.
    However, what I dislike in MF in D2 and D3V is that, without MF, you have no legendaries unless you play for a very long time or use the AH. And to be able to play in inferno MP0, you can’t sacrifice any slot for MF at the beginning. So, without MF you do not get enough good gear to be able to afford MF. It’s a catch 22!
    To conclude, I’d say that MF is nice for not so efficient builds and is a good thing only if we can find gears to farm inferno without MF.

  28. So they are making MF an useless stat so we can be screwed up on affix rolls or what? Seriously, i don’t undertstand. Why don’t they remove it?

  29. I wouldn’t see a problem with diminishing return if they removed the MF affix from gear and you could max out the new paragon system. But given that it’ll be very difficult if not impossible to max out the system 50points X 4attributes X 4 categories, that’s 800 paragon levels to get 200 adventure points, I don’t seen anyone putting points in MF anytime soon, or pickup radius for that matter.

  30. QUOTE

    That they want players to just find a great item and put it on and go, and not have to evaluate their overall stats, not have to check a website (as you do in WoW) to see how the item needs to be reforged exactly for your char, and not need to replace other items since this one takes them to their ChC or IAS max, etc. The devs think that most players want that immediate "this is awesome now I can kill faster" feeling, without having to consider their whole gear setup as a sort of jigsaw puzzle of varying affixes and properties that each need to be not too high or not too low. He's probably correct, and the fans who say, "I don't want to have to ever trade off damage for anything like MF" seem to prove his point.
    lulz..funny, but the noobification of D3 is a hardly new or shocking revelation. this mindset was blatantly obvious even during the pre-release. jay was just as proud as travis or any member of the current d3 team about dumbing down the IP.
    
    What you quote from Travis is amazingly sad.
    what's sad is players paying full price for an always online, self-esteem booster. no, wait that's actually pretty hilarious. anyway, flux has a point. all one has to do is look around these various diablo forums (which is supposed to be their core audience) and you'll see a not insignificant number of players asking or approving of LCD features and then they complain d3 is an LCD game.
  31. That #1 and –So the whole issue is balancing the reward.– can be applied to almost any stat in d3 is depressing.

  32. That doesn’t change anything I just said.
    We’re going back to where we started.

    Here’s a crazy idea: make both life steal and life on hit viable.

  33. Flux I challenge you to think about this carefully. Do you think you truly put any real ‘thought/evaluation’ into deciding whether you should take an item with more ChC vs more IAS? E.g deciding between 2 rings to purchase that cost the same and are identical except one has 9 IAS and one has 5 CHC even if there were diminishing returns or hard cap? I put to you that you have mindlessly plugged your numbers into the same formula that everyone else uses to come up with the ‘correct’ answer. This is a false sense of having done something intelligent with your gear. It is also false ‘choice’. You have just done some grunt work and you think you are superior to those that don’t want to do mindless maths (or more likely keying into d3up or something similar) when playing ACTION rpg.

    Are you also one of those fans who preferred it when there was no in game DPS calculator so you could do more calcs figuring out which item gives you more DPS rather than being able to hover over an item and knowing straight away? It’s mindless robotic maths and doesn’t require any ‘intelligence’ once someone else has figured out the formulas.

    What the devs seem to be trying to do is to give us real ‘choice’. E.g. when deciding between getting CHC or CHD on an item, there is no choice. Plug in the rest of your gear and one of those will add more DPS than the other. There is a ‘correct’ choice. With Loot 2.0 maybe you will be deciding between more raw DPS or maybe choosing an item that removes the resource cost of strafe instead. There may still be a ‘correct’ choice that makes you kill faster overall but at least you might choose the strafe option if you just want a different playstyle. I think that is a good thing.

  34. Just to throw my hat in here.

    MF was my favorite stat in D2, and previous to changes, D3.

    I play the game to find items. Finding them more is just awesome. There was nothing better in D2 than getting a big MF sorc and watching the uniques drop everywhere.

    I also wholly agree with Flux and others that the ‘item puzzle’ is very fun and interesting. The puzzle will only be better with new affixes rather than boring str/vit/crit… I want to hit the breakpoints while maintaining that sweet spot of mf. Or finally make it so I can play difficulty level X while wearing a special chest piece.

    TLDR: I love mf and I do not want the item game to be about only 2 boring stats…damage/toughness….

  35. “I play HC bro , the drug of dying is there every single second, its the new heroin, you should try it. Only the memory of the first sex beats it.”

    Woah.

    Ladies and gentleman, we got a badass over here.

  36. Flux…30% more isn’t “almost nothing.” You’re just overreacting to a change in the baseline.

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